[charmerci]

As a result of my speaker wire winding and separation thread - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156431.0

I tried out some solid core copper wire - untwisted - 12 feet. (Two 16g and one 14g. per side. Yeah, long story.) The highs are more forward (as it sounds coming out of my speakers), there's more bass and more depth to the soundstage. I'm enjoying listening to my system even more.

It's cheap to test it out in your system, 20 cents/foot for 12g at my local hardware store.

[planet10]

Don’t be afraid of trying skinnier solid core wire. I use a single pair of 24g solid wires separated out from CAT5 network cable.

dave

[charmerci]

Don’t be afraid of trying skinnier solid core wire.

You mean bigger is not always better??? What kind of American are you? 


I'll see. Our local hardware store's choice is pretty limited.

[Speedskater]

Don’t be afraid of trying skinnier solid core wire. I use a single pair of 24g solid wires separated out from CAT5 network cable.
dave

Without a doubt with many loudspeakers, this cable will sound different than reasonable speaker cables.

[planet10]

You mean bigger is not always better??? What kind of American are you? 

I am Canadian.

I have tried many kinds of cables in the last 40 years or so. With the speakers common around here — mostly single driver FRs — we found that a single run of thin solid cable sounded better than other stuff we tried. I have totes with much fatter cable going unused.

All i can say is try it, wire is very system dependent.

dave

[twitch54]

Don’t be afraid of trying skinnier solid core wire. I use a single pair of 24g solid wires separated out from CAT5 network cable.

dave

?????? depending on speaker and distance that makes zero sense

[planet10]

It certainly goes against common knowledge, but if it works (which it does)…

Lengths sre sbout 2m.

dave

[Speedskater]

?????? depending on speaker and distance that makes zero sense

Well it sure won't be accurate!
But in some cases it might add some interesting euphonic colorations. (if that's what you are looking for)

[twitch54]

It certainly goes against common knowledge, but if it works (which it does)…

Lengths sre sbout 2m.

dave

no Dave, it goes against laws of physics, Ohm's to be exact. My Lord, 'audiophools' are indeed a weird bunch !

[planet10]

You guya ew stuck in a rut. As long as the current demands do not exceed the current capaility of the wire you are fine. No violations of physics and it sounds better becaus eit is more accurate.

I say just try it — in your system it will work or it won't. A leftover  length of CAT5/6/7 is likely free from the local compuyer shop (i fon’t mean best buy).

dave

[Folsom]

The more you increase resistance, the less reactive the speaker appears to the amplifier. You are effectively raising the QES (making the speaker less damped electrically). This has some advantages with the types of speakers Dave (P10) is all about. But you could also just put a fatty resistor in the speaker to do the same thing.

When you have untwisted wire you may get more RF into the feedback so it may create a more "airy" sound.

[planet10]

you could also just put a fatty resistor in the speaker to do the same thing.

Not quite. There are other benefits as well.

The added R is signicantly less than that 1st choke in the XO,

dave

[Folsom]

You guya ew stuck in a rut. As long as the current demands do not exceed the current capaility of the wire you are fine. No violations of physics and it sounds better becaus eit is more accurate.

I say just try it — in your system it will work or it won't. A leftover  length of CAT5/6/7 is likely free from the local compuyer shop (i fon’t mean best buy).

dave

The problem isn't whether the wire will flow the current. The problem is whether it'll go so hot it breaks into two with an explosion. You could use 36awg wire if you could stop it from over heating.

I prefer higher awg, twisted, and leave the other stuff to the design of the speaker itself and/or amp combo type. When the speaker wire is benign you don't have an extra factor, like you do when you start swapping speakers and amps, with more resistive wire.

[planet10]

The 24g i’m using never even gets warm.

One could go thinner, but it is a PITA, breaking often.

dave

[ohenry]

Yep, I did cat 5.x 15 years ago.  If you don't have money, it's pretty good.  Then I tried extension cord.  Better... no doubt better, even on efficient speakers.  Give both a go, we all hear differently and we all don't play girl/guitar music. 

[Folsom]

Not quite. There are other benefits as well.

The added R is signicantly less than that 1st choke in the XO,

dave

How many inductors do you have with your single fullrange drivers?

The impedance of the inductors might be higher, but it is reactive nearly in whole. If you use 8ft 24awg cables you're adding 0.41ohms. That's like adding two more inductors to the typical 2 way speaker, in DCR terms. For bass drivers in a 3 way it would be like adding one more inductor. But without the inductance.

Again, you can use a resistor to do at least the QES shift. It works pretty well but it's complicated for 2 ways because it changes the FR too much. With fullrangers it may bring back the bass like using a feedbackless amp can.

[FullRangeMan]

You mean bigger is not always better??? What kind of American are you? 


I'll see. Our local hardware store's choice is pretty limited.

Dave amp looks to be a tube amp, among small tube amps users that use FR driver is common use a thin solid core speaker cable to increase the impedance the OPT see, this is the reason a thin solid wire offer better SQ than a regular speaker cable.
Worth mention Common Sense drivers connectors accept max 2mm cable.

[planet10]

How many inductors do you have with your single fullrange drivers?

None in any of the FRs, but some seriously big ones in the 2 WAW that we have done passive XOs.

No inductors at all gives some latitude to how resistive the wire is. The 1st online calculator i found suggested my wire has 0.18Ω R.

I am currently using a PP EL84 triode amp, but it was just put in so we could demo the Pass ACA which have been in system for probably 10 months.

A related subjecy it damping factor, most have no real understanding of the effects of changing output impedance. Optimum is very dependent of the speakers used — and there are a growing number of them that kak if the output impedance is too low (damping factor too high).

dave

[Speedskater]

First all of this is dependent on:
a] the length of the speaker cable.
b] the impedance curve of the loudspeaker.

So:
1] it's not about the damping factor (the difference is trivial)
2] it's not about the current carrying capacity of 24AWG. It can carry 25 Amps of music for a little while (that's 5000 Watts)

It's about putting a resistor is series with a loudspeaker, that has an impedance that varies with frequency.

[Steve]

..........

A related subjecy it damping factor, most have no real understanding of the effects of changing output impedance. Optimum is very dependent of the speakers used — and there are a growing number of them that kak if the output impedance is too low (damping factor too high).

dave

I can understand it Dave, and agree, as there appears to be an optimal damping factor for each amp/speaker combo. Not only does optimal damping/fr occur in the woofer, but also in every driver of a speaker, if you have more than one driver (woofer, mid, tweeter etc.)

--------------- General audience.

If one does a thevenin equivalent circuit, the damping factor for most speakers is limited mainly by the DC resistance of the voice coil, inductor in the crossover, speaker wires, output Z of the amplifier etc.

If the driver's voice coil has a typical impedance of 4 ohms and DC resistance of 3 ohms, and all else is zero ohms, the maximum damping factor is simply 1.333333. (The standard, easy way is to use speaker impedance (Z) divided by the amplifier output Z, assuming the wire has zero impedance. Then we come up with huge numbers for the damping factor.)

We all know that altering the amp's output impedance (Z) (changing amplifiers) makes a bass difference due to a very small difference in the real damping factor. We discuss the effects all the time. Speaker wire also alters the damping factor to some extent, just as the output Z of the amplifier does. In fact, the wire resistance can be much larger than the output Z of some amplifiers, so the effect is just as perceivable. I found for my personal system (~ 0,4 ohm output impedance (Z)) that 10 parallel 18 gauge wires is optimum, while 12 or 8 degraded the naturalness/realism.

One caveat. The speaker wire has both XL + Rdc resistance, so a little non-linearity with frequency. However, if XL of the wire is near zero, as in Charmerci's example, then Rdc is the only factor to consider. Charmerci found it helped his system. Dave's, on the other hand, has much more resistance vs XL but it helped his system's reproduction in his opinion. So it is trial and error.

By the way, changing the amplifier also changes the Rdc (reactance). However, it is difficult to find a proper ohmage, non inductive resistor to fit the exact bill in one's system. 

Cheers and continued success Charmerci and Dave.

steve