Are we on the verge of a SS revolution???

bavmike · « **Reply #80 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 02:26 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 13 Mar 2018, 02:23 am

Reference point is going to the orchestra and other live chamber music and solo instrument recitals. I listen to 90% classical, so I always judge any system vs how it sounds in a live performance from good seats.

So when you listen to something like the MSB Select 2, does it sound less like the orchestra than your tube setup, or more?

Tyson · « **Reply #81 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 03:08 am »

Haven't heard the select, I have heard the Analog DAC though and it's the best DAC I've heard so far.

For getting closer or not to the sound of live, tubes do produce tone more accurately than SS, at least in my experience. On the other hand, really good SS amps get the dynamics and drive of live music in a way that tubes can't. Overall tubes sound nicer, but less lively, versus live acoustic music. So it's a trade off. I'd LOVE for it to not be a trade off, I'd love for something to come along and just crush it from a tonal accuracy AND a drive/dynamics perspective. But nope.

And the fault may not even be in the playback system as much as it is in the recording chain. As far as I can tell, modern recordings are pretty good at capturing things like dynamics, fine details, and spatial information. But their weakness is a consistent (and persistent) draining of tonal color. Tubes in the playback chain IME restore some of the lost color and tone, but at a price. The price is usually in terms of very fine details, drive and ultimate transparency.

I think if there were a way to capture well the types of colors and subtle tonal shadings I'm talking about in the original recording, then I'd be very very happy to get my system as close to "straight wire, with gain" as possible. But that's not the reality. Not even "good" classical recordings capture these things I'm talking about, the thousand subtle shadings that really give a performance life and soul. So, tubes are in my system to redress this issue (even though I resisted using tubes for a long, long time when I was younger).

bavmike · « **Reply #82 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 03:15 am »

The Analog is a universe away from the Select 2. Anyways once you have experience with the Select 2 headphones direct please share your impressions. Based on what I’ve heard from folks with the experience, the sound can’t be beat. And when you have sound at that caliber you no longer need downstream gear that colors the signal for great sound. Guys who own that DAC end up ditching the tubes.

Tyson · « **Reply #83 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 03:23 am »

Quote from: bavmike on 13 Mar 2018, 03:15 am

The Analog is a universe away from the Select 2. Anyways once you have experience with the Select 2 headphones direct please share your impressions. Based on what I’ve heard from folks with the experience, the sound can’t be beat. And when you have sound at that caliber you no longer need downstream gear that colors the signal for great sound. Guys who own that DAC end up ditching the tubes.

Oh, is that what you use?

bavmike · « **Reply #84 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 03:26 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 13 Mar 2018, 03:23 am

Oh, is that what you use?

No I just have a few clients that have tried everything and stopped at that DAC. And it’s the reference I use for my DAC’s. Without a solid reference point of the best, you simply have no idea what’s possible. Big egos simply don’t make up for hands on experience.

Tyson · « **Reply #85 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 03:29 am »

Quote from: bavmike on 13 Mar 2018, 03:26 am

No I just have a few clients that have tried everything and stopped at that DAC. And it’s the reference I use against for my DAC’s. Without a solid reference point of the best, you simply have no idea what’s possible.

Oh wait, I DID hear the MSB at RMAF last year. They were in the room with the YG Acoustic speakers if I remember correctly. Yes, very good sound. But still fell very, very short in the areas I'm talking about. Of course it might have been those speakers, to say I'm not a fan of the YG Acoustic sound is putting it rather mildly

bavmike · « **Reply #86 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 03:33 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 13 Mar 2018, 03:29 am

Oh wait, I DID hear the MSB at RMAF last year. They were in the room with the YG Acoustic speakers if I remember correctly. Yes, very good sound. But still fell very, very short in the areas I'm talking about. Of course it might have been those speakers, to say I'm not a fan of the YG Acoustic sound is putting it rather mildly

You can’t judge a DAC based on the entire system setup in mediocre show conditions. Get one in your own listening room for a few months. Then compare with 200k of competitive DAC’s over the same time frame in your own system. After that share your experience. Folks with this level of experience are the folks who’s opinions
I put a lot of weight on.

Tyson · « **Reply #87 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 03:36 am »

Quote from: bavmike on 13 Mar 2018, 03:33 am

You can’t judge a DAC on the entire system setup in mediocre show conditions. Get one in your own listening room for a few months. Then compare with 200k of competitive DAC’s over the same time frame in your own system. After that share your experience. Folks with this level of experience are the folks who’s opinions
I put a lot of weight on.

That's true. So can you share your experience doing that in your system?

bavmike · « **Reply #88 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 03:39 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 13 Mar 2018, 03:36 am

That's true. So can you share your experience doing that in your system?

I’m Not claiming I have. But you are claiming tubes are required for the best sound, without having any experience with good DAC’s or good class D. However the folks who I know who have experience with everything, don’t have any tube in their system anymore. They did at one time. But now they have the experience with today’s top SS gear. So they no longer have the tubes in their system. The reason why is because they have the experience.

Tyson · « **Reply #89 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 03:40 am »

Quote from: bavmike on 13 Mar 2018, 03:39 am

I’m Not claiming I have. But you are claiming tubes are required for the best sound, without having any experience with good DAC’s or good class D. However the folks who I know who have experience with everything, don’t have any tube in their system anymore. They did at one time. But now they have the experience with today’s top SS gear. So they no longer have the tubes in their system.

That's certainly what you claim. Facts not in evidence, however.

Edit: You know, it doesn't even matter. Until/unless you've put things in your own system and done your own comparisons, your opinions are all 2nd hand hearsay. At least I arrived at my opinions honestly, by putting actual gear into my own system and then comparing it to a real reference (ie, live performances).

bavmike · « **Reply #90 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 03:56 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 13 Mar 2018, 03:40 am

That's certainly what you claim. Facts not in evidence, however.

Edit: You know, it doesn't even matter. Until/unless you've put things in your own system and done your own comparisons, your opinions are all 2nd hand hearsay. At least I arrived at my opinions honestly, by putting actual gear into my own system and then comparing it to a real reference (ie, live performances).

I have other gear in my system I have experience with. And none of it has tubes. The same folks who own this top SS gear also have experience with this same gear I have. And they also don’t use tubes with it. And I’m talking about guys who have owned $100’s of thousands in tube gear over their lives.

Bottom line is if you actually have experience with top level gear, tubes are dead.

Tyson · « **Reply #91 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 04:04 am »

Quote from: bavmike on 13 Mar 2018, 03:56 am

I have other gear in my system I have experience with. And none of it has tubes. The same folks who own this top SS gear also have experience with this same gear I have. And they also don’t use tubes with it. And I’m talking about guys who have owned $100’s of thousands in tube gear over their lives.

Bottom line is if you actually have experience with top level gear, tubes are dead.

I think you mean "tubes are dead if you can afford a $90k DAC". Haha. Or not. Don't you see how these types of sweeping generalizations you make are... you know what, never mind. You've obviously made up your mind a long time ago on this subject and can't even consider that you might be wrong, even a little bit. It's pointless to talk to people like you once you've dug your heels in. It wouldn't be quite as maddening if you'd ACTUALLY HEARD the gear that you keep going on and on about. But you haven't. So I'm not going to argue with you about some second hand opinion that you got from some 3rd party person. That's insane.

bavmike · « **Reply #92 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 04:10 am »

This all started because I suggested that what we need is a revolution of top quality DAC’s at affordable prices. As in MSB Select 2 quality for $2000-3000. When this happens, there will be very few folks left in the tube camp. I can assure you of this.

bavmike · « **Reply #93 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 04:17 am »

To add I’m not so arrogant to claim that I have near the level of experience of the folks I consult when seeking advice in this area. This is why I seek the experience of folks with the experience when looking for solid feedback on the topic.

debjit.g · « **Reply #94 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 04:27 am »

I have heard the Select II in two show conditions with MSB's monoblock amps and YGs. On both conditions, I couldn't make myself to believe I would ever want to own that system, even if I had the money - its has that hyper details to it. Its possible that the YGs aren't a good match with them but that begs the question if you are demoing a ultra high end system, there is no excuse for manufacturers not to match gears and setup things properly - just the next room (though I don't remember which one) sounded fabulous. I am sure Select II is a fabulous DAC especially at that price range and I would like to listen to it one day in a good setup.

Btw, MSB is coming up with a more affordable DAC and Transport:

http://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/premier-dac-features/
http://www.msbtechnology.com/transports/

On a different context: there is absolutely no substitute than treating the room and speaker positioning. No amps, preamps, dacs, sources, cables can give you so much reward as you would get by treating your room and placing speakers in the correct position

bavmike · « **Reply #95 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 04:33 am »

This is why listening at shows is a fools game. I would never demo my gear at one of those shows. You must experience gear in your own system to have a hope in hell of knowing all its strengths and weaknesses.

debjit.g · « **Reply #96 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 04:37 am »

Quote from: bavmike on 13 Mar 2018, 04:33 am

This is why listening at shows is a fools game. I would never demo my gear at one of those shows. You must experience gear in your own system to have a hope in hell of knowing all its strengths and weaknesses.

There were quiet a bit of low priced systems that sounded fabulous in the SAME show conditions. There wasn't any magic wand in their rooms to make their sound better than what it could have been without.

Tyson · « **Reply #97 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 04:44 am »

Quote from: bavmike on 13 Mar 2018, 04:33 am

This is why listening at shows is a fools game. I would never demo my gear at one of those shows. You must experience gear in your own system to have a hope in hell of knowing all its strengths and weaknesses.

Which you just admitted you HAVEN'T DONE. Dude, you don't even have any first hand experience with anything you're promoting here. I might have only heard the MSB at a show, BUT AT LEAST I'VE HEARD IT. Which is more than you can say, hahahaha.

bavmike · « **Reply #98 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 04:44 am »

Quote from: debjit.g on 13 Mar 2018, 04:37 am

There were quiet a bit of low priced systems that sounded fabulous in the SAME show conditions. There wasn't any magic wand in their rooms to make their sound better than what it could have been without.

Regardless of the room, when you’re auditioning a complete system, you’re not just hearing 1 component. It’s very easy to mess things up. I once went to a Devialet 400/Focal Utopia demo where there was $80000 worth of gear setup. It sounded like nails on a chalkboard. So I went to inspect the system and they had some cheap Chinese digital transport feeding the Devialet via SPDIF. The rep there had absolutely no idea what he was doing. Had I setup that system it could have sounded 100x better.

bavmike · « **Reply #99 on:** 13 Mar 2018, 04:50 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 13 Mar 2018, 04:44 am

Which you just admitted you HAVEN'T DONE. Dude, you don't even have any first hand experience with anything you're promoting here. I might have only heard the MSB at a show, BUT AT LEAST I'VE HEARD IT. Which is more than you can say, hahahaha.

I have experience with the only other DAC this same guy uses to listen to music. So I know the quality level the Select is at.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153645.msg1642935#msg1642935