My underlying point to this entire thing is to underscore how this sort of testing often times isn't the best indicator for "real world" use. That's all my point really is. No accusations, implicit or otherwise, intended, so please don't read into ANY of my comments like that.
I don't get it. Are you guys suggesting that the Onkyo doesn't have CUE problems because it wasn't mentioned by any reviewer other than Kris? Are you trying to imply that Kris is lying or that his objective test results are somehow less reliable than a subjective review? As for the quote above, I'm pretty sure that came directly from Kris on AVS, giving his own personal ranking based on what he had seen so far.
Not at all. I'm merely suggesting taking in the largest, overall context possible, with Secrets being one of many sources that add up to a total body of information.
Kris and Secrets make it very clear what they are trying to do with respect to their testing, and they have said on more than one occasion (and it is also mentioned in the Benchmark, I believe) that they don't intend the Benchmark as some sort of absolute ranking of DVD players.
You're right! Unfortunately, though, on certain forums, we have this group of spin doctors and acolytes that are determined to make Secrets just that and they'll exclude ANY outside information or sources. You have one of them that posts here on occasion as well.
Two ideas to make Secrets' better:1.) I and many others have asked Kris and his crew, on more than one occasion, to REMOVE ALL final scores altogether and simply post the raw data, put all the players in alphabetical order, and let the chips fall where they may.
2.) Probably a logistical nightmare and I'm not sure how feasible this would be, but theoretically: If Secrets could blind test every unit from now on. Kris and whoever else is doing the testing would have no idea the make or the brand of the unit they were testing until AFTER all the work was done.
What the Benchmark does do is show how well DVD players, both expensive and cheap, handle and process video, particularly less than perfect sources, and I've found the scores to correspond to the performance I see on my TV.
Sometimes I agree with them, other times I do not. In terms of the Onkyo 1000, I disagree with them and the apparent underrating that they're going to be giving the Onkyo 1000... and so do 11 other professional reviewers. Domestic and International.
The previous Pioneers I had showed numerous errors that I accepted for years thinking them just inherent flaws in the DVD format. My current players, both fairly highly ranked by Secrets, were noticeably better and didn't show those flaws, particularly combing. I don't think that Secrets would discourage anybody from evaluating a DVD player for themselves and choosing based upon what they see, but the fact that somebody doesn't find a particular model's inability to pass a certain test very important doesn't invalidate the test results.
Fair enough.
The problem again is: Despite all of this, you have this crew of spin doctors that run around on certain other forums and they use Secrets' as their lone source and base for spin and lies.
If you browse the AVS DVD forums for any appreciable amount of time, you're going to be blown away by how often you see this practice.
Invariably, you'll see some thread trolled with "But Secrets says this, so..." You do a search for "Onkyo" over in the DVD forum at AVS and just look at how many Onkyo 1000 threads have been deliberately trolled, derailed, and locked since December.
Take note of the same cast of characters that are always responsible for this as well. One of them posts here and has had several of his posts rightfully deleted in the past for trying to pull the same crap here. Thankfully, the admins here do not tolerate that sort of nonsense.
With respect to the Onkyo, it is clear from what has been posted on AVS thus far that it is a very strong performer and among the handful of best out there.
Yes!
The performance is limited by the capability of the parts, i.e., the MPEG decoder and the deinterlacing chip from Silicon Image. It seems that nearly every company uses MPEG decoders that are only adequate at best with CUE problems of some sort, but Faroudja processing allows some of those errors to be masked in certain players. Of course, Faroudja processing leads to its own problems with MB. The Onkyo doesn't use Faroudja, so it avoids MB but then can't mask those CUE problems. That wouldn't be an issue for me given that I don't seem particularly bothered by it (and have another player for any DVDs that might be bad for CUE), but for others it may well be an issue. As for the Silicon Image deinterlacing, it is, as expected, top notch, as it has been for the past few years. It has simply been surpassed by HQV. The fact is, however, that HQV is only available in one player that is nearly double the cost of the Onkyo. In fact, it appears that is the only player out there of all that have been tested that doesn't suffer from some level of CUE and/or MB. For some that will make it worth the $3500 MSRP.
Yes, except for nearly twice the price, I'd argue that the Denon 5910 does not have APPRECIABLE gains on the Onkyo 1000, overall. Furthermore, for $3500, the lack of custom resolutions is simply mind boggling.
The Denon 5910 could be deemed a "failure" by some because of the lack of custom resolutions and timings in combination with the price. $3500 for a DVD player is fine if it's loaded to the moon and essentially has a DVDO Iscan bult into it, but having no custom resolutions is a major oversight for a high end player.
You can get the super deinterlacing with an outboard scaler like Lumagen or Algolith or Iscan and buy a moderately priced HDMI or SDI transport. The Denon 5910 makes no sense in that regard. It may have the Realta but my experience with it and my readings are very similar scaling / deinterlacing to even the Pioneer 59 AVi for 1/3 of price. Think about that. And then think about where the Onkyo 1000 and Integra 10.5 fall in line with that.
The bottom line is that what we know so far of the Secrets testing of the Onkyo confirms that it is one of the very best out there, and if you don't want to worry about MB, then maybe the only one under $3000. With a better MPEG decoder it would have very few weaknesses as far as video is concerned. If I could take advantage of the scaling, it would be the one I had my eye on.
Fair enough!
Ears already covered a lot of this for me, but I'll add my $0.02 anyways.
For me, Secrets is one of MANY sources that I use and add up to a total body of work and reference before I move forward towards a demo and ultimate purchase. I respect them and value their work, but they aren't the first, last, and only word on the subject for me.
But there's no changing this FACT: Kris and Secrets will be THE very first, lone dissenters on this Onkyo 1000. They will also be the very first to dare put it below anything besides the Denon 5910 for ANY reason.
And I just simply don't agree with them, nor do the 11 professionals that I linked you to in my last post. FWIW, YMMV, etc. etc. No insults intended, no disrespect intended, but it is what it is.
By MY personal experiences with the Onkyo 1000, beginning with demoing of it, Denon 3910, and Pioneer 59, among a few others, through October and November on a ISF calibrated BenQ 8700 on an 80 inch screen, my results agree with the professional reviews I linked you to.
Component video AND HDMI: The Onkyo simply produced a better picture than either the Denon 3910 or the Pioneer 59. Noticeably so. Build quality and transport? Not even close. Audio? Not even close. All this out of the box, of course.
Were the Pioneer 59 or Denon 3910 trash? NO! Not by any means! The Onkyo was simply better, though.
You'll probably have Levesque come in here and give us the usual "Pioneer 59 480i HDMI over the $1500 Iscan HD+ can't be beat!" but that's irrelevant to the topic at hand.
OF COURSE a $1000+ player combined with a dedicated, $1000-1500 video processor is probably going to be very hard to beat. You throw in a few hundred extra bucks for an SDI mod and there ya go. It's moot and irrelevant. We all can agree to this and move on.
All of this is about out of the box and straight up.
(As as aside: I'd easily recommend the Pioneer 59 or the Onkyo 1000 + an Iscan HD+ (or comparable brand's video processor) over the Denon 5910 any day of the week. Better bargain, better overall performance, custom resolutions, etc. across the boards. ) The Onkyo 1000/Iscan HD+ combo would be untouchable for thousands of dollars to come.
If I had not landed the insane $1447 Vanns.com sales price back in November on the Onkyo 1000, I'd very likely be a Pioneer 59 owner right now. I truly believe it to be the king of the <$1000 tier, at least. I'd even give it the <$1500 range. But that's where it ends.
The Pioneer 59 and Denon 3910 are both EXCELLENT players for their price class, but let's not make them out to be more than what they are, like some have desperately tried.
They are not in the same league the Onkyo 1000 or the Denon 5910. It's that simple. Fact. Anyone who spends any decent amount of time with these players will figure this out for themselves.
From there, I considered the Pioneer 59 to be the second best player after the Onkyo 1000 and ahead of the Denon 3910 because of the Faroudja bugaboos like digital artifacting, ghosting, and macroblocking. For me it was VERY noticeable on the ISF'd BenQ 8700 via 80 inch screen. Shocking.
The, when you can even see these sorts of things even 8 feet away on some 4:3 32 inch Tube, you know you've got problems. Forget about what I saw on a much larger screen!
I swore off Faroudja after dealing with all of that on the otherwise excellent-for-$200 Zenith 318 from March-July of last year. I also wanted a massive audio upgrade and began seriously building my HT around that time. The Onkyo 1000 became the center of my HT.
The Zenith 318 was a nightmare even on a 32 inch tube, in terms of Faroudja bugaboos and white crush, among other things. At $200, it's easily forgiven. At $1000+, it's unacceptable.
I knew for any upgrades, I'd have to steer clear of Faroudja and I've never looked back. I never WOULD go back to a Faroudja based unit ever again, at least with the existing Faroudja chips.
Macroblocking, ghosting, digitial artifacting. 3 strikes and you're out.
These are three things that I can't tolerate and yet I see several players that are well known to be plagued by these things sitting rather high on the overall Secrets' list. That's why you just have to take things in overall context for perspective. And note who the sponsors of the site are as well, like Denon is for Secrets. Can't be ignored.
Secrets has plenty of MB plagued players sitting in the 90's, so go figure, I guess.
example: Look at how high the Denon 5900's score still is to this day. Eveyrone knows what a MB plagued nightmare that player still is. How many firmwares have been put out for the 5900 as of this day, and the MB STILL isn't fixed?
The bulk of the blame does go to Faroudja for this, but the end result is: The Denon 5900 is a macroblocked plagued nightmare that isn't vastly improved upon from the $200 Faroudja based Zenith 318. And look at the score anyways.
It's almost mandatory for a 5900 owner to have spend the extra money towards an SDI mod and/or an external video processor to get the complete product that they should have had to begin with, considering how much the 5900 cost.
Another easy example: Another Denon player, like the 1600, with a laughably high score and it makes me start scratching my head. The 1600 was mediocre, at best.
You can't ignore things like that, either. It's not an accusation, just an observation that one has to take into consideration and I most certainly have.
Fairly or unfairly, there's going to be a perception issue on ANY test sight or publication that tests their own sponsors' products. You have to watch out for it and take into consideration. Up or down. Only firsthand experience can truly check and balance all of this out.
I'm not implying anything or accusing Kris or anyone, but it's simply a fact of life that you can't throw out and ignore. Take it FWIW. YMMV. etc. etc.
My personal list goes like this:
OUT OF BOX
VIDEO:
1.) Denon 5910
2.) Onkyo 1000
_______________________________________
______
3.) Pioneer 59
4.) Denon 3910
AUDIO:
1.) Onkyo 1000
2.) Denon 5910
areadvd.de did a head to head with the new Denon 5910 and the Integra/Onkyo beat it out on audio. Call it a tie between the two and the jury is still out if nothing else.
_______________________________________
______
3.) Pioneer 59
4.) Denon 3910
OVERALL:
1.) Denon 5910
2.) Onkyo 1000
_______________________________________
_______
3.) Pioneer 59
4.) Denon 3910
I drew the lines deliberately to denote a tier and class difference.
