[lousyreeds1]

Hi all,

I have owned and loved my Super 6 XRS Alnicos for four years.  I'm now driving them with a tube amp fronted by a NuPrime DAC-9.  The sound is great, but despite the electronics being big on tone and warmth, there has always been just a bit of excess treble energy/harshness.  I've tinkered a bit with positioning, and imaging/soundstage are great, but nothing seems to get rid of this slight treble emphasis entirely.  Right now the speakers are about 30" away from the back wall.  The left speaker is about 30" away from the side wall, and the right side of the room opens up into a large alcove.  I'd really appreciate any advice on positioning or anything else.

Thanks!

[lousyreeds1]

I should add that what I'm hearing is consistent across all digital music types (DSD, 16/44, Tidal streaming) and vinyl as well.  So I'm pretty sure it's down to the speakers themselves (less likely) or some sort of room interaction I've never been able to kick (more likely).

[pstrisik]

Have you done any room treatment?  I found absorbers at first reflection points including behind the speakers made a huge difference in taming harshness.

[MarkR7]

I absolutely agree with taming the reflection from the back wall between the speakers.  Another personal observation is that you need to tame the reflection point from the floor below each speaker if its a hard surface like a hardwood floor.  Imaging will improve and harshness will subside, but we haven't seen your room, so hard to recommend anything else.

Have you done any room treatment?  I found absorbers at first reflection points including behind the speakers made a huge difference in taming harshness.

[konut]

You might also try different interconnects and/or speaker cables to massage the frequency response a bit. What are you using now?

[Canada Rob]

lousyreeds1,

My Alnico system:
-Super Alnico Monitors on Skylan four post stands
-Decware Super Zen Select (non UFO) with V-Caps and stepped attenuator
-Audio Sector NOS, non filtered DAC
-Decware Silver reference interconnect
-Cardas Clear USB cable
-Monster basic 16ga speaker cable (yes, you read right, sometimes less does the job)
-MacBook with Pure Music, and Tidal
-13' x 17' x 8' high untreated, but semi cluttered room

The above is about as close as I've come to tonal purity that I can remember.  Harshness doesn't enter the picture.  However, when I tried a Fleawatt Class D amp on this system the top end took on a sound similar to what you describe.

The advice from the other posters is good and I would follow that route first as it's the path of least resistance, but I would also check out your upline gear.  Perhaps some tune rolling is in order if you haven't tried that yet.  I can only say, it's not the speakers.

[trackball02]

You might also try different interconnects and/or speaker cables to massage the frequency response a bit. What are you using now?

I concur with the speaker cables. I have Super Alnico XRS, and speaker cables can make a big difference. I have tried various cables, and in my system, I have found that Morrow Audio SP5 cables, have a very smooth top end without harshness. You should try auditioning a pair. It is fun to experiment with the Omegas since they are such revealing speakers.

I'm not familiar with your amp; however, in my experience, tube rolling has worked. I have a 45 amp, and using vintage globe tubes, such as Cunningham CX345 are sweeter and more fluid than 45 ST type tubes. Changing my driver tubes (6SN7) from Sylvanias to Ken-Rads also made an improvement.

[Folsom]

I'd consider power conditioning.

[seikosha]

Hi Lousyreeds1

In addition to what others have mentioned, make sure that you are not on a direct vertical or horizontal axis with the speakers.

Conversely, perhaps you just prefer a warmer sound, nothing wrong with that at all.  What bothers one person, another might not notice at all. 

[mick wolfe]

Have you done any room treatment?  I found absorbers at first reflection points including behind the speakers made a huge difference in taming harshness.

Another agreement on room treatments for openers. I used a variety of ATS absorbing panels ( 2" thickness) to successfully tame similar issues in my small listening room. Front wall and first reflection points as mentioned. Area rug if you have a hard surface floor as well. Also in agreement with those who have mentioned cables. But not knowing what you're using, it's difficult to determine if that would be an issue.

[lousyreeds1]

Hi all,

Thanks so much for the insight.  The front wall has curtains all the way across, and the floor is carpeted, so there's quite a bit of absorption.  The right side wall has an architectural feature that prevents any absorption on the first reflection points, so I have none on either side.

My cabling is all Black Cat by Chris Sommovigo.  The tubes in my amp are all nice NOS.  I guess it's possible that the cabling just isn't the right fit here, but it's difficult to imagine that the overall balance in the electronics is anything but very warm. 

I actually tend to favor speed and transparency, but whatever is going on in the treble has been enough to make me move toward warmer electronics.  And I've gotten that warmth, but the excessive treble energy/harshness is still there. 

Anyway, I appreciate the ideas.  Much appreciated.

[DaveC113]

I'd consider power conditioning.

+1... dirty power causes harshness, grain and glare. Even if you think you don't have any issues, once you use a quality power conditioner you'll realize your sound wasn't as quiet and noise-free as could be. 

I'd recommend AGAINST trying to use cables as tone controls, it can work but in the end it's a really bad idea as you will limit the performance of your entire system. Go with cables that are as neutral and detailed as possible without adding harshness. Basically, never use passive components as tone controls whether cables, resistors, capacitors, etc...

In cables, what adds harshness/grain is non-UPOCC silver and brass (or worse, zinc) connectors, and this goes for your binding posts and RCA jacks too. If you use pure copper connectors and high quality wire like UPOCC copper or silver from source to driver it'll make a massive difference. You'll get rid of harshness you never knew you had and you'll hear detail you never knew existed.

I also agree with comments about room treatments. Tackling 1st reflection points may make for a big improvement.

[FullRangeMan]

Hi all,

I have owned and loved my Super 6 XRS Alnicos for four years.  I'm now driving them with a Coincident Dynamo 8wpc SEP amp fronted by a NuPrime DAC-9.  The sound is great, but despite the electronics being big on tone and warmth, there has always been just a bit of excess treble energy/harshness.  I've tinkered a bit with positioning, and imaging/soundstage are great, but nothing seems to get rid of this slight treble emphasis entirely.  Right now the speakers are about 30" away from the back wall.  The left speaker is about 30" away from the side wall, and the right side of the room opens up into a large alcove.  I'd really appreciate any advice on positioning or anything else.

Thanks!

You would stuff inside the speakers a bit more w/this brown blanket 10 or 15mm if you can find it in your town, it will reduce the treble and up the bass.

[Canada Rob]

I'd consider power conditioning.

+2.  I forgot (I always forget) to mention I use power conditioning.  Wouldn't hit the "on" switch without it.

[syzygy]

You would stuff inside the speakers a bit more w/this brown blanket 10 or 15mm if you can find it in your town, it will reduce the treble and up the bass.

Do you feed the kittens through the speaker's port?

[beowulf]

As far as the Black Cat speaker cabling ... are they made from silver or copper? 

The reason I ask is that I had a pair of silver plated copper MIL-SPEC cabling that gave off a tizziness in the upper freq band that drove me crazy trying to find the culprit. It took a lot of experimenting to find out what it was because I added a bunch of tweaks at one time plus a new set of speaker drivers. 

It finally came down to the speaker cables and I replaced the silver over copper with just some cheap copper cables I had laying around and voila ... everything sounded great again.  My point being ~ is that silver can give off that upper range treble energy.

After I found out about the copper sounding better, I then went and replaced my cheap copper cables to an OCC Copper based cable by ZenWave that really made my system fall into place.

So if the Black Cats are silver (or a combined silver), try replacing them with a copper based cable and see how that goes.

[DaveC113]

You would stuff inside the speakers a bit more w/this brown blanket 10 or 15mm if you can find it in your town, it will reduce the treble and up the bass.

I wouldn't. This is changing the tuning of the box and altering the speaker Louis spent a long time with. Also, the speaker is obviously not at fault here as many people don't have this issue at all. IMO you'll do more harm than good changing the basic design of the speaker like that. It already has just the right amount of absorptive material in it.

[guest61169]

Put a panel or divider or something in the open side wall to mimic the real side wall.   Then treat first reflections same on both sides.  Make the distance from side wall to speaker different from the distance from rear wall to speaker. 

[pstrisik]

Put a panel or divider or something in the open side wall to mimic the real side wall.   Then treat first reflections same on both sides.  Make the distance from side wall to speaker different from the distance from rear wall to speaker.

I have my left first reflection panel on a mike tripod.  Have hooks attached to the back of the panel's frame that hook over the boom of the tripod.  Also has advantage that you can move it, which would be helpful if it only came out for listening sessions.

.........Peter

[lousyreeds1]

Hi all,

I thought I'd post a (terrible) picture to help visualize the space.  You'll see the curtained front wall, large opening to the right, and the architectural element that makes it difficult to address the first reflection points.  The room extends about 12 feet back beyond where I stood to take this picture (room is around 25'x14' in total, with the listening position about 10' from the speakers. 

Here's a thought - could it be that the space is simply too large for either the Alnico XRS or the 8 wpc amp I'm using?  Could that be causing a little excess treble energy?  I doubt it, somehow, because aside from that and some slight lightness in the bass, the sound is great.

I'm definitely not performing surgery on the speakers, and unfortunately temporary reflective materials on stands, etc won't be possible given the room layout, but I appreciate those and all other suggestions. 

I've been meaning to put up a panel to block the open space near the right speaker.  Would this address the treble emphasis, though?  Imaging/soundstaging are already great, so that treble issue is really all I care about fixing. 

Thanks again!