Treble energy

Folsom · « **Reply #20 on:** 26 Apr 2016, 05:02 am »

No pic.

lousyreeds1 · « **Reply #21 on:** 30 May 2016, 01:02 pm »

Hi all,

With sincere apologies for the delay, photos are attached (sorry for the poor quality). The speakers are about 30 inches off the back wall, and the left speaker is about 24 inches away from the side wall. As you'll see, there's no wall on the right side. The space extends about 12 feet behind the point where the first photo was taken. Any thoughts on how to address some excess treble energy based on setup would be very welcome.

Thank you!

opnly bafld · « **Reply #22 on:** 30 May 2016, 02:37 pm »

Have you ever tried moving the glass top coffee table from between the listening position and speakers?

Canada Rob · « **Reply #23 on:** 30 May 2016, 04:20 pm »

No doubt a big sheet of class behind those curtains. The curtains may not be enough to stop unwanted reflections off the glass.
Also, your amp is only about 2-3 feet from the bass port of your speaker and your turntable is almost right in front of the driver.

Larkston Zinaspic · « **Reply #24 on:** 30 May 2016, 05:16 pm »

I moved recently. It's interesting that, once I moved out of my old place (where I had lived for ten years), I noticed I had a mild but crispy slap-back driveway echo in the old listening room. This added a bit of a "sting" to the top end, noticeable in the way it would slightly exacerbate sibilance in certain recordings. So you jump through the usual hoops...maybe it's the DAC...or the cables...or my toobs aren't vintage enough...or my digital isn't analog enough...or maybe it's the output coupling caps in my preamp...or the speakers? And so on, dancing the audio shuffle.

I'm not saying that some or all of those things don't contribute. But here I am in my new place, with essentially the same gear...and I don't hear it anymore. It's just not there.

Of course I now have other anomalies to deal with in a new place, but most of us are stuck with the rooms we've got.

I don't know if that makes me an advocate for room treatments or not...take it for what it's worth. Hopefully you'll find a way to get that little niggle nullified.

mick wolfe · « **Reply #25 on:** 30 May 2016, 05:24 pm »

Yes, hadn't noticed the location of amp and turntable before. I think I only looked at the top photo. I would move both out of the "firing range" of the port and driver of the Omega Alnico. In addition... probably getting them on a more substantial equipment rack wouldn't hurt either. The room itself looks to be well damped with furniture and carpet. I would then swing my attention to an audition of a speaker cable like a CRL Bronze, TWL or similar.

Canada Rob · « **Reply #26 on:** 31 May 2016, 12:54 am »

I recently moved part of a system (amp and speakers) from the short wall to the long wall in the same room, and the improvement was remarkable. I have never heard such bottom end from the Super 3i, not to mention everything else improved. When on the short wall the system needed the sub. On the long wall it doesn't need a sub. Have played it with a Super Zen, Kitoki, and a vintage Marantz 1030. All sounded great - the favorites being the tube amps.

lousyreeds1 · « **Reply #27 on:** 31 May 2016, 05:22 am »

Thanks, all. The pics are a little deceiving - the turntable is in fact about 18 inches to the side of the driver. And the excess treble is at play even when the turntable is not in use. I don't know what to say about the wall of glass - it's covered by thick curtains, and there's nothing else I can do. Nor can I reorient the entire space to a long-wall setup. I'm getting a big, heavy equipment rack this week that will sit between the speakers. I'll report out on whether that makes a difference.

abernardi · « **Reply #28 on:** 1 Jun 2016, 04:40 am »

I'm having similar issues to what you describe and my room is about the same size, but my speakers are on the long wall. I did get some significant improvement when I covered my 65" TV which was mounted over the fireplace between the speakers with a heavy throw. That surprised me because there's very little noticeable energy coming off the back of my speakers, but it made a big difference. From looking at your pix, my best guess is that those curtains aren't thick enough and you're getting reflection off the glass behind. I'm NOT expert in this by any means though. As an experiment you might want to hang some heavy blankets just behind the speakers and see if that helps.

lousyreeds1 · « **Reply #29 on:** 8 Jun 2016, 03:27 pm »

Hi all,

Quick update here. The new equipment shelf is in place (see pic) and it did indeed have a considerable impact on sound. The slight excess in treble energy is still there, but on the whole the sound seems to have a more solid foundation. I wouldn't say there's more bass, but it feels more grounded and effortless now, and it makes whatever's going on in the treble less bothersome. Altogether a great improvement.

Canada Rob · « **Reply #30 on:** 8 Jun 2016, 07:08 pm »

Your setup looks nice and clean but.....the tube gear has got to come out of there. You'll cook it, the bottom of the shelf above, and likely the heat isn't too good for the records above either.

rajacat · « **Reply #31 on:** 8 Jun 2016, 07:29 pm »

Quote from: Canada Rob on 8 Jun 2016, 07:08 pm

Your setup looks nice and clean but.....the tube gear has got to come out of there. You'll cook it, the bottom of the shelf above, and likely the heat isn't too good for the records above either.

+1

beowulf · « **Reply #32 on:** 8 Jun 2016, 11:35 pm »

Quote from: rajacat on 8 Jun 2016, 07:29 pm

+1

+2

That is a great looking equipment rack and the tube amp/s should sit on the top shelf, for one they may cook your records and need some air around them, but also they are cool looking and you can show them off.

Also, you may have missed my other question, but what type of metal are your Black Cat speaker cables using? If it is silver (or a combination of silver), for a cheap experiment you should try swapping the Black Cats with a copper speaker cable (even cheap copper zip/lamp cord). If it removes the treble energy then you should look into better copper cables such as ZenWave UPOCC based stuff.

I had a problem with treble energy and I was using a fairly expensive pair of MIL-SPEC silver over copper speaker cables and as soon as I swapped them out for just a cheap pair of $20 OFC copper cables (all copper ~ no silver plating) the difference was night and day and the treble energy was immediately tamed. I then went on to find better copper cables such as the ZenWave stuff I'm using now.

Rocket_Ronny · « **Reply #33 on:** 8 Jun 2016, 11:48 pm »

Cables? Silver can be bright as well as cat 5 speaker cable coming off as hard.

Rocket Ronny

lousyreeds1 · « **Reply #34 on:** 9 Jun 2016, 02:56 am »

The Black Cat Neo-Morpheus speaker cables I'm using are 100% copper. They're a hold-over from when I used Red Wine Audio, and I purchased them on their reputation for speed and accuracy, so it's possible they're not the perfect match with this amp. I guess I ought to try something else that's known for a smooth treble. Recommendations in the $100-$500 range are very welcome.

I also have a much more powerful class-D hybrid amp on the way, just to see if the low wattage and large space might not be playing nicely together. I don't expect it to match the tonality or dimension of my tube amp...which is moving to the top level of the shelf after one toasty listening session.

Thanks as always.

Canada Rob · « **Reply #35 on:** 9 Jun 2016, 03:32 am »

The Supra Classic 2.5 cable Louis uses in his speakers would be a shoe in. Also QED profile 79 strand is a legendary cable. Neither are very costly.

doggie · « **Reply #36 on:** 9 Jun 2016, 02:37 pm »

I disagree about an earlier comment regarding not using cables as tone control. In a good system everything makes a difference, sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes just different. It is all about synergy and experimentation. No absolutes. In my system which has speakers just like yours I can hear almost any change that I make. The good news is that it is very transparent, the bad news is that you need to play a lot to find a happy balance for yourself.

I would definitely try some different cables. Personally I have always found silver to be a bit bright for my tastes but mated with other cables which use other materials can work well. I use some home made copper cables using some Belden pro audio cabling and also one pair of Silver Sonic silver cables. It gives a nice balance between natural tone and detail. My speaker cables use NOS Western Electric wire which unfortunately is now hard to find.

Also as others have said these speakers are very sensitive to positioning .i.e. toe-in etc.. You might also try raising them a bit just to experiment. I put some hockey pucks under my spikes and it improved the sound. Probably depends on how high or low your listening position is...

You might also try a bit of tube swapping. Some tubes or brands can have characteristic glare.

I think of audio as more like cooking than just science and theory.

Looks like you have all of the parts for a great system. Just a little tweaking left...

undertow · « **Reply #37 on:** 9 Jun 2016, 03:11 pm »

I also disagree with people and their "Tone control" cable argument. Fact is you gotta tailor sound around so many factors beyond electronic matching with acoustics, type of recordings etc... worrying about the hard core "Purist" approach in these cases would be a mistake.

I can say this that seeing those speakers with a giant glass wall behind them will definitely enhance the high frequency "Glare". Honestly, it may not be all about taming the high's down, but bringing the mid-bass up. And doing that so far from corners, or a solid wall made out of more organic sheet rock might prove to be very difficult. If you could get the speakers on the wall with drywall you would be much better off to access what happens to the frequency balance.

Another quick test which might give you an idea if that glass is killing you or not is to take 2 thick comforter blankets, and drape them directly over the top of the CABINET off the back. Obviously you don't want to block a port or anything, and just see if that treble comes off a bit meaning you just have an acoustic problem before going crazy with cable "Toning" and new tubes etc...

DaveC113 · « **Reply #38 on:** 9 Jun 2016, 03:24 pm »

Well, as far as cables being tone controls it is true they will have an effect, but the further you deviate from neutral the less resolving the cable will be, it's as simple as that. So if you want warm cables be aware that it'll come with a severe decrease in resolution. Bright cables add harshness that obscures detail and harms resolution.

If your goal is high fidelity you're far better off following my advice and going with cables that are as neutral as possible. If not, then do whatever, it doesn't really matter. Lots of people want warm cables and don't care about detail, and they aren't wrong, people are free to pursue any goals they have.

I can guarantee you what I stated above is correct, I've made A LOT of cables over the last 20 years or so and I can make them sound however you want, from warm and smooth to edgy and bright. But there is this middle way that leads to the best results.

undertow · « **Reply #39 on:** 9 Jun 2016, 03:30 pm »

Quote from: DaveC113 on 9 Jun 2016, 03:24 pm

Well, as far as cables being tone controls it is true they will have an effect, but the further you deviate from neutral the less resolving the cable will be, it's as simple as that. So if you want warm cables be aware that it'll come with a severe decrease in resolution. Bright cables add harshness that obscures detail and harms resolution.

If your goal is high fidelity you're far better off following my advice and going with cables that are as neutral as possible. If not, then do whatever, it doesn't really matter. Lots of people want warm cables and don't care about detail, and they aren't wrong, people are free to pursue any goals they have.

I can guarantee you what I stated above is correct, I've made A LOT of cables over the last 20 years or so and I can make them sound however you want, from warm and smooth to edgy and bright. But there is this middle way that leads to the best results.

By the way I never read your post specifically so I can't say that this was pointed at the "Neutral" cable argument. I agree with that. Warm cables are sometimes even worse than "hyper" cables depending on the situation. But what I was illustrating is who can prove what "Neutral" even really is? Only one cable I can think of that carries the name Cardas Neutral

Does it mean it really will sound smooth in every system... Honestly no idea! I can say I had some Cardas Reference top of the line cables at one time. They were actually VERY forward, and a bit to analytical. But I have also had Cardas Golden Cross which were hot for a long time due to being "Warmer" and they were, but they were also sometimes mushy, and boring in many cases which brings us back to the point. What can be proven as neutral in every case? Fact is of the Reference, and Golden cross both were also substituted in the same exact system showing these results! Of course at the time the Neutrals did not exist yet I believe, but I never got that far anyway