Snap, Crackle, Pop... Suggestions on a "Pre-treat" for cleaning? Magic Formula?

undertow · « **on:** 4 Apr 2016, 02:19 pm »

Okay, so I own an Ultrasonic record cleaner.

However, I get the occasional LP that has some more stubborn surface noise, I realize a lot of it is in the manufacturing on these, which believe it or not is a lot of the time brand new records that seem to have a few ticks "built in" from the factory. Others I get dead silence 95% of the time.

Looking for suggestions on a deep cleaner formula that can help, maybe not eliminate some of this. I don't expect a miracle, but I have had some records you would think can never get it all the way which have gone dead silent.

Any home remedy, or commercial available product is fine. Just want something I can lay on the tracks, let soak a minuet and then proceed to rinse, and clean again hoping to loosen up or dull the extra pop here and there on a few expensive pressings.

Thanks

sorinv · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 02:39 pm »

I seen this one, seems rather radical, but maybe it helps in your situation. I guess best to test on some low value records first

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gyvipBs6Vs

undertow · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 02:42 pm »

Oh yeah I have seen this method... Not really interested in going thru all that honestly. Just looking for something with an Enzyme, or high alcohol content to penetrate and hopefully dissolve it in a short period of time and then re-run in the cleaner to make sure the surface is free of any residue.

GentleBender · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 02:53 pm »

This thread got me started cleaning. I wish I had time to go through the thread and point out the exact formula, but my notes are at home. http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/record-cleaning-youre-doing-it-wrong.689430/ I've got plenty of Triton X100 to share, if you don't want to order any. I also have plenty of enzymes he suggested for deep cleaning.

undertow · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 02:58 pm »

GentleBender,

Yeah its a long thread to find the mix for sure!

Well if you get a chance to post the actual formula here, Thanks.

And yeah if it includes something that is not really necessary to order in bulk I would definitely buy some from you.

S Clark · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 03:34 pm »

Gentlebender,
What is the enzyme you are using and where can I order some? I didn't see it in the first few pages of the thread on AK

Blackmore · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 03:39 pm »

Jim at Osage Audio makes an enzyme cleaner. Give him a call.

Gzerro · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 04:21 pm »

Do you rinse and vacuum with ultrapure water after cleaning on the Ultrasonic?

I have found this really helps clean up residual noise on many records.

I just use a DIY bath type cleaner. If you are using one of the $3000 machines, perhaps this isn't as much of an issue.

undertow · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 04:26 pm »

Yeah... I think I found the solution the Audio Intelligent "Enzyme" cleaner is suppose to work pretty well by putting a film layer on it, and letting sit for 15 to 20 minuets. Then just run in the Ultrasonic machine. Thanks

GentleBender · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 06:29 pm »

Here is a breakdown that I used to make my solution.

Posted by GPJeff on Audiokarma http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/record-cleaning-youre-doing-it-wrong.689430/page-15

For a 50 ml batch:
(1 teaspoon = 4.929 ml> say 5 ml for those using droppers)
5 ml (1 teaspoon) of Triton X-100
45 ml (9 teaspoons) of Distilled Water
Mix solution and let sit approx 10 hrs (overnight) or add 99% IPA to speed dilution

From Vince "You want a final concentration of detergent around 0.1 to 0.2%"
50 ml = 1.69 oz
1 gal = 128 oz
1.69 oz solution / 128 (oz/gal) water = 0.013 =1.3%
therefore
1 oz of solution to 1 gal water = 1.3%;
1 oz of solution to 10 gal water = 0.13%;
Use 5 ml solution per gallon of water

undertow · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 06:33 pm »

Thanks. I will keep this in mind. I got a sale price on the "Audio Intelligent Enzyme" cleaner which seems to be pretty much premade following along these lines, and sworn by as the real deal. I got for about 18 bucks on the bottle of 16 oz, I don't need 5 gallons of stuff so it's right now easier, and cheaper to attempt their already commercial solution in this case. I had to order a couple other things as well at the same time so it worked out getting free shipping on all of it.

GentleBender · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 06:55 pm »

Dr. Vince also has this word document detailing his cleaning processes including which enzymes he uses. https://sites.google.com/site/vincesaudiofiles/system/app/pages/search?scope=search-site&q=dr.+vince

Looks as if Dr. Vince had a falling out with Audiokarma recently.

GentleBender · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 08:35 pm »

Quote from: S Clark on 4 Apr 2016, 03:34 pm

Gentlebender,
What is the enzyme you are using and where can I order some? I didn't see it in the first few pages of the thread on AK

I recommend you download the document I linked earlier for a full description and uses. But here is a small part detailing the enzyme formula I picked up from Amazon.

(This is all from Dr. Vince's article in the link I posted above earlier)

I treat the record with an enzyme mixture made from an enzyme dietary supplement. You can use any enzyme supplement, just make sure it is in capsulated form so you can empty it and that it contains at least a protease, a lipase, and a cellulase (amylase). I use the Nexazyme brand (Bioprosper Labs) as it has these and many other enzymes that are beneficial to removing contaminants and it is relatively inexpensive (about $0.17/capsule as of this writing). Whatever enzyme product you choose, it is preferred in dry form as the enzymes retain their activity and you only need to use a small amount at a time. The contents of one Nexazyme capsule is enough to make 1 Liter of enzyme fluid, just mix it in water. I do not recommend liquid enzyme detergent mixtures like Sporacidin as they loose their activity on the shelf and they contain chemical additives that we do not need to put on our records. Do not worry about enzymes harming the vinyl. Their beauty is that they are specific and only attack their substrates: proteins, starch an oils.
Once broken down, the debris and enzymes must be removed. After rinsing most of the enzyme mix away with water, I employ detergent along with physical disruption to make sure contaminants are removed. Care must be taken to be gentle so as not to damage the vinyl: I recommend soft pads, non-ionic detergent, and balanced pH.

vinyl_guy · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 10:05 pm »

I have used the Audio Intelligent fluids with good results. I like the Formula 15 for pre cleaning used records before cleaning in my Audio Desk Ultrasonic cleaner. On new records, if there is an occasional pop or tick after cleaning in the ultrasonic, I run the record through a second time and 99% of the time the pop or tick is gone.

undertow · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 10:19 pm »

Yeah I see the Formula 15 is touted as an all in one deal, but to never use it directly on the vinyl without being basically diluted using their "Pure water" mix bottle as well. I just went with the more direct enzyme formula to see what happens. I will just apply the enzyme cleaner with a brush giving it a light scrub all around on both sides, let it sit for a while on the spindle in the batch, then just drop it directly in the clean distilled water already in the ultrasonic machine tank, and let it do its thing. I assume it's going to be a little better, we will see.

vinyl_guy · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Apr 2016, 11:05 pm »

Quote from: undertow on 4 Apr 2016, 10:19 pm

Yeah I see the Formula 15 is touted as an all in one deal, but to never use it directly on the vinyl without being basically diluted using their "Pure water" mix bottle as well. I just went with the more direct enzyme formula to see what happens. I will just apply the enzyme cleaner with a brush giving it a light scrub all around on both sides, let it sit for a while on the spindle in the batch, then just drop it directly in the clean distilled water already in the ultrasonic machine tank, and let it do its thing. I assume it's going to be a little better, we will see.

I use Formula 15 by itself and then rinse with RO deionized water I buy from Culligan at 60 cents per gallon before putting it in the ultrasonic. I have never had a problem. I've also used Disc Doctor solution with very good results.

undertow · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Apr 2016, 02:04 pm »

The update:

100% success! I tested a couple of tough surface noise albums by laying on the Enzyme cleaner from AI, letting them soak for about 15 minuets or so, and then dumping them directly into the ultrasonic cleaner while they were still pretty wet.

I can't believe how dead silent these albums came out. It works. As long as there is no real damage I guess you can do more. Ultrasonic alone was not quiet enough to get a few of these at this level. But the combo of about 30 seconds scrubbing on some of the enzyme and letting it sit did in fact work beyond expectations in this case. Plus the bottle was about 18 or 19 bucks which should last me 3 to 5 years no problem with the occasional spot treatment needed on some albums.

Not saying this will make every record perfect, but ones you know are right there this can make it happen it seems.

Wayner · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Apr 2016, 02:21 pm »

Most record cleaners are water based, (almost completely) with an anti-fungal agent and an anti-static agent in very small quantities. Record noise is from 4 sources: 1) static discharge, 2) scratches, 3) groove grunge (usually a fungus), 4) over-heated vinyl.

Static discharge can usually be defeated with just plain water. Grunge in the grooves is the real problem. The formula that I have been using for many, many years is water based, but uses a little 99% isopropyl alcohol, a very tiny amount of ammonia (the anit-fungal agent), and an even smaller amount of liquid dish-washing detergent. This fluid is for my daily cleaning (before playing), sprayed on my old Dishwasher D4 brush to get it damp (not dripping wet), and then I clean the record on a spinning platter. Records are very clean and static free.

'ner

vinyl_guy · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Apr 2016, 03:27 pm »

Quote from: undertow on 7 Apr 2016, 02:04 pm

The update:

100% success! I tested a couple of tough surface noise albums by laying on the Enzyme cleaner from AI, letting them soak for about 15 minuets or so, and then dumping them directly into the ultrasonic cleaner while they were still pretty wet.

I can't believe how dead silent these albums came out. It works. As long as there is no real damage I guess you can do more. Ultrasonic alone was not quiet enough to get a few of these at this level. But the combo of about 30 seconds scrubbing on some of the enzyme and letting it sit did in fact work beyond expectations in this case. Plus the bottle was about 18 or 19 bucks which should last me 3 to 5 years no problem with the occasional spot treatment needed on some albums.

Not saying this will make every record perfect, but ones you know are right there this can make it happen it seems.

I wonder if dumping the enzyme cleaner into the ultrasonic will have any effect on the ultrasonic cleaner.

undertow · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Apr 2016, 03:35 pm »

Unless it can eat thru the stainless steel tank... likely not. But I have always put a little treatment in the tank anyway over the past 3 years or so. When I change water I normally put some alcohol, along with another Enzyme based cleaner I have from Phoenix. At most it bubbles up a bit at first, but after that works just as it does with distilled water only. I run a specialized large tank filter as well to keep it crystal clear on a normal basis.