[rollo]

    I love this. Gee looks like shit, tastes like shit, smells like shit gee glad I did not step in it. Let the engineers measure away and WE will let them know how it sounds.
    At the end of the day all designs need to heard, Why  you ask, so they can be sold. BRILLIANT !!!!


charles

[Guy 13]

    I love this. Gee looks like shit, tastes like shit, smells like shit gee glad I did not step in it. Let the engineers measure away and WE will let them know how it sounds.
    At the end of the day all designs need to heard, Why  you ask, so they can be sold. BRILLIANT !!!!


charles

Hi Charles,
 

Guy 13

[vinyl_guy]

Not meaningless when it comes to music at all, its all about measuring what you hear......listening to.

First thing any musician does when playing most instruments is measure it.....its called tuning.
First thing any group of musicians do is measure the group...its called tuning.

Theres even world standards.....440 concert pitch......guess what the 440 stands for.....yep, another measurement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch

When I decided to treat my room....wait for it....I decided to measure so when I listened, it was improved.

Dont want to get into a petty cable or amp debate.....but anyone that doesnt know you measure when playing
or reproducing music, well, they've only listened to what others have already measured.

Completely different types of measurements. I was referencing measurements of amps, etc. Tuning instruments before playing is based on how the instrument sounds, not using some scope to measure the instrument. I had Rives Audio design an acoustic treatment package for my listening room. The initial design was based on measurements, the final location of the various absorption and diffusion panels was based on listening and fine tuning their location. Listening trumps measurements every time when it comes to music.

[BobRex]

Tuning instruments before playing is based on how the instrument sounds, not using some scope to measure the instrument.

Well, actually you can buy instrument tuners that do measure the tone and report sharp or flat.  In an orchestra, the members tune to a reference (typically first violin), but they'll tune to whatever is considered "A".  If the reference previously tuned to an off-tune pitch, then the whole orchestra is off-key, but at least they are together

There are things that can be measured and are related to sound quality, but as rou suggest this is only part of the picture.  I have yet to see measurements for "depth", "detail", or "palpable presence".

[werd]

Completely different types of measurements. I was referencing measurements of amps, etc. Tuning instruments before playing is based on how the instrument sounds, not using some scope to measure the instrument. I had Rives Audio design an acoustic treatment package for my listening room. The initial design was based on measurements, the final location of the various absorption and diffusion panels was based on listening and fine tuning their location. Listening trumps measurements every time when it comes to music.

+1

The most useful measurement or device anyone can have can be read off a simple dB sound meter.  It tells you how loud it is. The volume you like to listen in dB. It tells if there is any imbalance between speakers.  There are other room measurements that can be had with different software and mic placements but by in large the the -most significant- can be roughly read by a cheap app on your phone. All electrical energy transduced into acoustic energy and then measured. I agree electrical data is useful for trouble shooting and design as you said. I might think different if specs were not included in a consumer product but they are so who cares.

[mojave]

I would recommend every audio enthusiast spend some time watching a Master Violin maker employ the craft. Watch him/her cut boards to make an instrument. They tap and listen to the board every few minutes to see if the shape, thickness, grain orientation, type of wood etc. are producing the desired tone. The finished product is NOT measured. A Master Violin maker knows how it should sound before he cuts the first board.

On the other hand, master violin players can't tell a Stradivarius from a modern violin:
Blind-tested soloists unable to tell Stradivarius violins from modern instruments

Stradivarius Violins Aren’t Better Than New Ones: Round Two

[Freo-1]

Tubes measure S**t,and yet you say it's the best,Freo,am i right?...

No, but nothing new there.   

Here is what I posted earlier:  "  Any format which is recorded correctly (pays attention to not get into the "loudness wars") in digital will have improved measured performance over vinyl.  Use a DAC such as the Benchmark DAC-2, and it is about as good as it gets. 

What one "prefers" is another point of order entirely.  I often "prefer" listening to a tube playback setup compared to a high end SS setup.  I have both.   The SS setup, at 550 watts a channel, gets modern digital recordings "right".  Having said that, for older recordings, the tubes provide great satisfaction.    In no way would I dare to infer that they are "better".  The measurements do not support that argument.   Same goes with vinyl vs. digital.

As they say, it's "Horses For Courses".  Whatever system moves you is what you want, measurements or no measurements. "


BTW, tubes are actually more linear than SS.  They measure as more noise in a quiescent state, but actually can have less noise when injecting a signal.  Google an article called "The cool sound of tubes".  It was written by a EE. 

Now, back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.....

[PDR]

Completely different types of measurements. I was referencing measurements of amps, etc. Tuning instruments before playing is based on how the instrument sounds, not using some scope to measure the instrument. I had Rives Audio design an acoustic treatment package for my listening room. The initial design was based on measurements, the final location of the various absorption and diffusion panels was based on listening and fine tuning their location. Listening trumps measurements every time when it comes to music.

It really has nothing to do with how the instrument sounds. Flutes can be out of tune with tubas.
You can tune them together, but in order to be pitched correctly you need a measuring device, be it electronic
or mechanical....think tuning fork, it gives something to compare (measure) against.

I get the tweaking the treatments thing....but your tuning the room with treatments, not the music.
If you think about it you probably placed them to your preference, or a preference of genre type, even speaker type, not necessarily correctly.
Your room doesnt need to measure flat for preference......think house curve.

Remember the Carver challenge? He simply distorted one amp until it matched another.
They couldnt tell one from another, all that proved was that thru listening, distortion was used to make
one amp sound what they thought was correct......exactly why you cant trust ears alone......bias.

Really though it only matters how it sounds to you, correct or not, if your enjoying it....rock on.

[JerryM]

Really though it only matters how it sounds to you, correct or not, if your enjoying it....rock on.

Hear, hear!!!

[vinyl_guy]

It really has nothing to do with how the instrument sounds. Flutes can be out of tune with tubas.
You can tune them together, but in order to be pitched correctly you need a measuring device, be it electronic
or mechanical....think tuning fork, it gives something to compare (measure) against.

I get the tweaking the treatments thing....but your tuning the room with treatments, not the music.
If you think about it you probably placed them to your preference, or a preference of genre type, even speaker type, not necessarily correctly.
Your room doesnt need to measure flat for preference......think house curve.

Remember the Carver challenge? He simply distorted one amp until it matched another.
They couldnt tell one from another, all that proved was that thru listening, distortion was used to make
one amp sound what they thought was correct......exactly why you cant trust ears alone......bias.

Really though it only matters how it sounds to you, correct or not, if your enjoying it....rock on.

We disagree in part. It has a lot to do with how an instrument sounds. I know lots of musicians who know how each string on a guitar should sound by ear without any artificial tuning device. I know others who can tune a piano without a tuning device. My ears aren't that good, but their's are.

On the other hand, I understand that I am tuning my room with the acoustic panels. I used an SPL meter and a test tone CD when I measured my room before the Rives design and again to verify the proper location of the RPG panels per the design. Final tuning was done by listening to music I know by heart and involved tweaking the speaker location. My ears, listening to music I know well, tell me the panels and speakers are in the right location and the SPL meter confirms a relatively flat response.

[FullRangeMan]

Well, actually you can buy instrument tuners that do measure the tone and report sharp or flat.  In an orchestra, the members tune to a reference (typically first violin), but they'll tune to whatever is considered "A".  If the reference previously tuned to an off-tune pitch, then the whole orchestra is off-key, but at least they are together

Correct. I use a Ibanez just in case.

[jimdgoulding]

This from a romantic when it comes to music and who places a high value on purity of the sound of instruments and 3D distinction.  That's probably why I like the Koetsu phono carts that I have heard and owned.  Less important to me listening to jazz or pop, but listening to classical music, I wouldn't/couldn't be w/o one.  The music just seems to engage me on a deeper level and it's presentation pretty doggone convincing.  Having said that, I sure DO recommend digital recordings made by the Mapleshade label.   Try "Sound Roots"- it's jazz- for killer presence and excitement.  Plus, the ambience is plainly audible.

PS-  Bits or vibration?  The latter is organic.  I'm organic.

[MtnHam]

"Is vinyl's sonic superiority a hoax?"

Anyone who thinks it might be a hoax has never experienced vinyl done right, or they wouldn't ask the question!

[mcsnare]

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2020/10/17/hi-fi-why-do-records-sound-better-the-ivory-tower/

[Craig B]

I'm old enough to have used, and continue to use, media of all kinds (though I admit my R-to-R tape days are long behind me). The only absolute I believe these days is that as soon as someone claims a particular medium is "better," someone else will come along with an example from one of the other camps that betters it. There is so much about quality sound reproduction that's reliant on factors far beyond the choice of recording or playback medium. I have LPs that sound better than their digital counterparts, and I have digital discs and files that sound better than their analog counterparts.

What *really* interests me about vinyl is the number of user-affected variables involved in the playback chain. Playback of digital media will of course be affected by choice of transport and DAC, but with analog, the selection of equipment is just the beginning of the chain of variables that can drastically affect sound. Besides selection of the 'table, arm, cartridge and phono section, there's setup geometry, including fine tuning things like VTA, azimuth, tracking force. If one's goal is sound with the highest fidelity to the original signal, the number of active choices required by the operator of the playback chain virtually eliminates the possibility of precisely getting there. And that's fine - many people view that ritual as part of the charm of vinyl, part of the immersive nature of the medium. I just find it a little odd that it's not decried more in a hobby where many think of the ultimate goal as accurate reproduction.

That thought would have never occurred to me back in the pre-digital era, since those analog systems were all we knew, but with the advent of digital, the act of data extraction from the source disc/file has become pretty much hands-off. It's become plug-and-play in a way vinyl never was. In short, we don't have nearly as many ways to alter the sound (or mess it up, if you prefer) as we used to. It's become a much more "sterile" process, to the point that the "messiness" of vinyl now stands out in stark relief.

[/mp]

Reminds me of something the late Gabe Wiener said. Asked why his Pro Gloria Musica releases were only available on CD, Gabe answered, one can make really good sounding CDs & LPs. CDs are easier.

[Bullitt5094]

I love it all and it all sounds different. I go from a 7ft tall Tekton to a single source open baffle Fast-8. From a Lyngdorf class D to a Nelson Pass F5 class A. From a Feikert Analog turntable to a self-built dedicated music server with SOTA internals and external digital signal correction. I could be listening to any combination of those signal paths on any particular day and be totally engrossed. (I just realized I don't have a valve amp. Need to work on that.) DIY here I come...

[jjss49]

not a hoax, hardly

it is just an opinion, firmly held by some

[S Clark]

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2020/10/17/hi-fi-why-do-records-sound-better-the-ivory-tower/

Thanks for posting your article, as member mcsnare is the author.  But one joy of bringing old threads back is the remembrance of posters that are no longer with us.  I noticed that jimdgoulding had posted just a couple of post back..... and I sure miss that guy.

[Bullitt5094]

According to that article, it seems most of us like it a little bit dirty.