[tube-vds]

nothing wrong with that. 

[werd]

One is a high gain device and the other isn't. TTs use gain to drive a preamp while a digital sine wave needed to drive preamps  is mostly generated at the dac.  The problem using lots of gain (and it does not matter if its at the pre amp or amp stage) is most of the power rating comes from voltage. This basically drops your bass output. Unless of course you respect the phono stage and don't cheap out and get  one that can drive a pre amp with good clean current. This makes phono stages difficult to build and expensive. The down side to digital, a dac can not give you a sinewave with out filtering. A cartridge can compared to digital. So pick your poison, a high gain front end with a full sine wave or low gain dac that manufacturers a quasi-digital outut. You decide... that is my opinion     

[Freo-1]

Which digital?  Redbook or 24 bit or DSD?  Redbook digital can sound very nice and I have lots of cd's, but to say they match my analog front end is hogwash.  I have a few high res files that do give the platter spinner a run for its money.  Listening is what "nails it".

Any format which is recorded correctly (pays attention to not get into the "loudness wars") in digital will have improved measured performance over vinyl.  Use a DAC such as the Benchmark DAC-2, and it is about as good as it gets. 

What one "prefers" is another point of order entirely.  I often "prefer" listening to a tube playback setup compared to a high end SS setup.  I have both.   The SS setup, at 550 watts a channel, gets modern digital recordings "right".  Having said that, for older recordings, the tubes provide great satisfaction.    In no way would I dare to infer that they are "better".  The measurements do not support that argument.   Same goes with vinyl vs. digital.

As they say, it's "Horses For Courses".  Whatever system moves you is what you want, measurements or no measurements.

[vinyl_lady]

Measurements are for engineers and pretty much meaningless when it comes to listening.

[Freo-1]

Measurements are for engineers and pretty much meaningless when it comes to listening.

It's a circular argument.  Pretty hard for a recording to "sound good" if the playback medium measures bad.

Measurements are important, but, there are arguments to be made as which measurements are important, and which ones to take with a grain of salt. 

[nickd]

Measurements are for engineers and pretty much meaningless when it comes to listening.

I would agree with the Lady. Measurements are typically used to design and test but there is nothing like a set of ears to make sure  something "sounds" good.

I would recommend every audio enthusiast spend some time watching a Master Violin maker employ the craft. Watch him/her cut boards to make an instrument. They tap and listen to the board every few minutes to see if the shape, thickness, grain orientation, type of wood etc. are producing the desired tone. The finished product is NOT measured. A Master Violin maker knows how it should sound before he cuts the first board.

As I understand them, recording engineers (good ones anyway) follow the same methods with different devices. They know how it should sound and get the mix as close as possible based on physical limitations of the stage/studio, recording equipment and storage devices available to them.

Good sound is typically more art than science IMOP.

[Freo-1]

The problem with the "ears" argument is that it's subjective.  What sounds good to one person sounds like crap to another.

Measurements, on the other hand, don't lie.  They provide a standard for all to refer to, and thus provide a set of standards from which to judge performance.

[Wayner]

How does something sound great to one person sound like crap to another?

[dminches]

Measurements are for engineers and pretty much meaningless when it comes to listening.

+1

I love when people rip into things they have never heard.

[dminches]

The problem with the "ears" argument is that it's subjective.  What sounds good to one person sounds like crap to another.

That's all that matters - how it sounds to someone.  Who listens to something that measures well but sounds like crap?

[Freo-1]

That's all that matters - how it sounds to someone.  Who listens to something that measures well but sounds like crap?

Or, vice versa.   If it measures bad, it can't sound good. 

[dminches]

Or, vice versa.   If it measures bad, it can't sound good.

What measurement are you talking about and who measures stuff?  Not me.  I just listen to it.

[Freo-1]

SNR, linear frequency response, damping, SPL, power curves, jitter, wow, flutter, rumble, THD, TIM, and that is just for starters. 

In general, what is heard can be directly related to gear measures. 

[PDR]

Measurements are for engineers and pretty much meaningless when it comes to listening.

Not meaningless when it comes to music at all, its all about measuring what you hear......listening to.

First thing any musician does when playing most instruments is measure it.....its called tuning.
First thing any group of musicians do is measure the group...its called tuning.

Theres even world standards.....440 concert pitch......guess what the 440 stands for.....yep, another measurement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch

When I decided to treat my room....wait for it....I decided to measure so when I listened, it was improved.

Dont want to get into a petty cable or amp debate.....but anyone that doesnt know you measure when playing
or reproducing music, well, they've only listened to what others have already measured.

[G Georgopoulos]

SNR, linear frequency response, damping, SPL, power curves, jitter, wow, flutter, rumble, THD, TIM, and that is just for starters. 

In general, what is heard can be directly related to gear measures.

Tubes measure S**t,and yet you say it's the best,Freo,am i right?...

[Early B.]

Tubes measure S**t,and yet you say it's the best,Freo,am i right?...

Aren't tubes the standard by which audiophiles "measure" sound quality?

[G Georgopoulos]

Aren't tubes the standard by which audiophiles "measure" sound quality?

Early B, it's about what people like,freo is wrong,there is no best,tubes measure poorly yet people like them,i have no problem with that,hey i know many o people who are into tubes and say bad things about solid state while solid state people are polite and don't argue about sound quality,guess who's right?

sorry i had to say this mate...

[Early B.]

Early B, it's about what people like,freo is wrong,there is no best,tubes measure poorly yet people like them,i have no problem with that,hey i know many o people who are into tubes and say bad things about solid state while solid state people are polite and don't argue about sound quality,guess who's right?

sorry i had to say this mate...

Yeah, I was agreeing with you. The "rolls eyes" was my attempt at sarcasm.

Let's set the record straight -- measurements are a topic of discussion for the guys designing audio equipment, not for the guys listening to it. Most of the guys on audio forums who talk a lot about measurements don't know what they're talking about, and the real designers often have to come to their rescue and explain it properly. 

Audiophiles "measure" sound quality with our ears. I don't know what a particular "measurement" sounds like, but I know what boomy bass sounds like. The techno-geeks are constantly trying to convince us that "subjective" is a really bad word. In audio, some of the measurements are "subjective" because there's no universal agreement on them. If a manufacturer tells me his speakers are 87 dB, another manufacturer can build an identical pair and will claim that his speakers are 90 dB, and both of them are correct. If that's the case, then the "science" of audio is often unscientific. Once I realized the value of measurements, I decided not to consider them in my purchase decisions. Instead, I rely heavily on the ears of other audiophiles. And so, too, do most techno-geeks, but they'll never admit it.             

[tube-vds]

try this:

> before having a great dinner with a nice bottle of french wine - i always do a chemical analysis of the them; and depending on the measurement i know if it will taste fine....      

[Guy 13]

try this:

> before having a great dinner with a nice bottle of french wine - i always do a chemical analysis of the them; and depending on the measurement i know if it will taste fine....      

 
Hi tube-vds,
a very good way to put it.


Guy 13