[FullRangeMan]

I already have two of them.  I would have to change my musical taste to enjoy vinyl again.

I should change my ears to like vinyl.

[Freo-1]

I should change my ears to like vinyl.

Let me know if you have success.  Didn't work out for me. 

[jsaliga]

The vast majority of music I listen to was recorded between 1940 and 1980.  Of that, it probably works out to be 40% classical, 40% jazz, 15% rock.  The left over 5% is newer material recorded over the last few decades.

For me to embrace digital as my primary source of music I would have to lower my sound quality standards considerably.  And that goes doubly so for classical music recorded in say, 1985 and after.  And it has little to do with formats.  It has more to do with microphones, recording technique, mixing, and mastering.  You may find some research into how this was done between 1950 and 1970 and how it is done today to be especially enlightening.  The gold standards for classical music to my ears are RCA Living Stereo and Decca FFSS SXL LPs.  I own most of this music on SACD and CD, on original vintage LPs, and on heavy vinyl reissues (180g and 200g).  And to my ears it just sounds much better on vinyl: better dynamics, more 3-dimensional, more detailed, and superior tonal balance.  With digital it like the notes are all there, but the life has been completely sucked out of the music in post-production.

It isn't that digital music cannot surpass vinyl in raw performance.  It is that it often doesn't even equal it because of the manner in which it is produced.  And that has been my experience.

I do, however, think that CD is ideal for music sourced from 78RPM records.  Mosaic Records has done a wonderful job producing multi-disc box sets of 1930s and 40s jazz on CD, often mastering from metal mothers.  I have a Benny Goodman 7 disc set of his late 1930s to mid 1940s stuff and it sounds far better than any of the 78s I used to own back when I was collecting shellac records.  Finding this music on playable 78s can be an impossible, not to mention cost-prohibitive task.  So I think Mosaic is doing jazz lovers a great public service.

--Jerome

[Freo-1]

The vast majority of music I listen to was recorded between 1940 and 1980.  Of that, it probably works out to be 40% classical, 40% jazz, 15% rock.  The left over 5% is newer material recorded over the last few decades.

For me to embrace digital as my primary source of music I would have to lower my sound quality standards considerably.  And that goes doubly so for classical music recorded in say, 1985 and after.  And it has little to do with formats.  It has more to do with microphones, recording technique, mixing, and mastering.  You may find some research into how this was done between 1950 and 1970 and how it is done today to be especially enlightening.  The gold standards for classical music to my ears are RCA Living Stereo and Decca FFSS SXL LPs.  I own most of this music on SACD and CD, on original vintage LPs, and on heavy vinyl reissues (180g and 200g).  And to my ears it just sounds much better on vinyl: better dynamics, more 3-dimensional, more detailed, and superior tonal balance.  With digital it like the notes are all there, but the life has been completely sucked out of the music in post-production.

It isn't that digital music cannot surpass vinyl in raw performance.  It is that it often doesn't even equal it because of the manner in which it is produced.  And that has been my experience.

I do, however, think that CD is ideal for music sourced from 78RPM records.  Mosaic Records has done a wonderful job producing multi-disc box sets of 1930s and 40s jazz on CD, often mastering from metal mothers.  I have a Benny Goodman 7 disc set of his late 1930s to mid 1940s stuff and it sounds far better than any of the 78s I used to own back when I was collecting shellac records.  Finding this music on playable 78s can be an impossible, not to mention cost-prohibitive task.  So I think Mosaic is doing jazz lovers a great public service.

--Jerome

Some good points raised.  I have read up on the recording/mastering process, and there is much good information to be learned from this.

I agree the RCA/Mercury Living Presence recordings are some of best out there.  Those recording were compressed somewhat to work with the media of the day (vinyl).  However, those engineers trended to minimize the amount so as not to damage the recording.  Sadly, many of the recordings today suffer from the loudness wars problem.  Still, I have many new digital SACD recordings that have dynamic contrasts that vinyl simply cannot obtain. 

I do not feel that digital "sucks the life out of the music".  In fact, I think piano on hi res digital sounds closer to real than analog.  I also understand that reasonable people can hold different views on this.   

[Saturn94]

Lol.  The problem with making broad, general statements on either side of the argument is that they often lack context.  Secondly, people buy what they prefer and then try to argue that what they prefer is better than what someone else prefers. 

Moreover, the debate always seems to be about the differences between vinyl and digital as a music storage medium.  The unfounded assumption often being. for example, that the digital version of ZZ Top's Tres Hombres and it vinyl cousin were created with the same care and high quality mastering.  The truth is that people making these sorts of comparisons are often comparing apples to oranges.  Not all differences can be linked to differences in the storage medium.

I personally am much more interested in how a recording was made, the microphones used during sessions, and then how the content was mixed and mastered, and by whom.

I have about $30,000 invested in audiophile vinyl, so don't think for a minute that I need to have my preferences validated by other people.  I really don't care what they might prefer.  I do care that everyone has a choice.  If someone chooses differently than you did it doesn't mean they have settled for inferior sound.  It just means that what is important to them and how they judge quality is different.

--Jerome

 

[jsaliga]

I do not feel that digital "sucks the life out of the music".

I didn't expect that you would.  If you did then you be firmly on the vinyl side of the debate.    Hell, it would mean that you agree with me.  We can't have that!!

Different strokes for different folks.

Sometimes I think threads like this need a warning sign for people who enter and post.  Something like this:

WARNING: For Entertainment Use Only.  Nothing said in this topic should be taken seriously by anyone brave enough to enter.  Or perhaps: Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here.

It just helps a lot not to take anything said in a thread like this too seriously.

--Jerome

[orientalexpress]

here is a cool article regarding Decca recording http://www.polymathperspective.com/?p=2484

 

[thunderbrick]

I do not feel that digital "sucks the life out of the music".  In fact, I think piano on hi res digital sounds closer to real than analog.  I also understand that reasonable people can hold different views on this.   

When we refer to "digital" I suspect most of us are referring to run-of-the-mill stuff.  I think most mass-market CDs, ESPECIALLY remastered classic rock discs, suck the life, breath, blood and poop out of the music.  Whether it's the massive compression or a moron at the mixing board, I believe that's where most of the damage is done,
Quite different from hi-res digital, which i'm sure is superb. 

[jsaliga]

I think it all depends on who is doing the mastering and what the sources are.  To me knowing the pedigree of a release I am about to buy is a hugely big deal.  More bits doesn't necessarily mean better sound.  And I have seen my share of 180g vinyl that didn't quite cut the mustard.  As I said before, the sources I buy my music from are very good about disclosing details about how their product is produced -- and that is far more important to me than the medium the recording is on.  If you aren't given that information then you have no idea what you are buying: you roll the dice and takes your chances.

--Jerome

[G Georgopoulos]

Hi Freo

If you're into digital,better buy a class-d amp,they are really good with digital sources,lots of dynamic range,and resolution into 100khz,tube amps are more suited to vinyl "natural analog", that way you'll have an all chop waveform system from source to speakers,the other point i made in a previous post was about quality pressing of vinyl,i have bought new records with no ticks, pops or much hiss...

Go for class-d Freo !!...

[Freo-1]

Hi Freo

If you're into digital,better buy a class-d amp,they are really good with digital sources,lots of dynamic range,and resolution into 100khz,tube amps are more suited to vinyl "natural analog", that way you'll have an all chop waveform system from source to speakers,the other point i made in a previous post was about quality pressing of vinyl,i have bought new records with no ticks, pops or much hiss...

Go for class-d Freo !!...

Been there, done that.  Doesn't work for me.  Nice try. 

PS: I DO like vinyl for some music formats.  Great for rock/jazz!

[jsaliga]

Like it or not, this is the vinyl circle.  So, both the strong points and limitations of the format are fair game.

True, but doesn't it strike anyone as a bit beyond the pale that people who don't like vinyl feel the need to come to place that is really a haven for vinylphiles for the express purpose of getting on a bully pulpit and bashing vinyl?  It is like they have to express their views in front of an audience that they damn well know is going to be, at the very least, not receptive, and at worst, hostile.  There are probably better, and more productive ways to entertain oneself than this, methinks.

I have been around forums a long time, and have seen countless threads on this topic.  None of them have ended well.  Some people don't know when enough is enough.  I do, so this will be my last comment in this thread.

Cheers.

--Jerome

[rooze]

I try hard NOT to like vinyl. It's impractical, it wears out, it's hard to store and transport...it makes little sense in an age of convenience. And good digital is getting better, so what's the point of vinyl, it's redundant,right?

So what do I do? I get rid of my turntable and associated vinyl spinning equipment and start looking for streaming devices and memory players and anything digital and practical. Then I start to feel like something is missing. My listening sessions become shorter.... I get distracted and wander over to Facebook or some other forum. It's easy to do since I have my iPad in-hand to control by digital setup. Something just isn't right.

So I go out and buy a cheap turntable on the off chance that I fancy spinning an old Dixieland album or some musty mono recording from Louis or Ella. Then suddenly I find myself in a different place again. I can't tear myself away from the system, I spend my downtime hauling boxes of old records from the garage to the listening room. There's something intangible going on that doesn't make any sense. If I can't measure it and describe it adequately then it doesn't exist,right? But it does exist. Vinyl has a magical power that very good digital can get close to, but not quite match. But I think it's more than just what we hear, it's the mood it creates and the merging of different stimuli.
Do your own thing, whatever floats your boat.

[werd]

I try hard NOT to like vinyl. It's impractical, it wears out, it's hard to store and transport...it makes little sense in an age of convenience. And good digital is getting better, so what's the point of vinyl, it's redundant,right?

So what do I do? I get rid of my turntable and associated vinyl spinning equipment and start looking for streaming devices and memory players and anything digital and practical. Then I start to feel like something is missing. My listening sessions become shorter.... I get distracted and wander over to Facebook or some other forum. It's easy to do since I have my iPad in-hand to control by digital setup. Something just isn't right.

So I go out and buy a cheap turntable on the off chance that I fancy spinning an old Dixieland album or some musty mono recording from Louis or Ella. Then suddenly I find myself in a different place again. I can't tear myself away from the system, I spend my downtime hauling boxes of old records from the garage to the listening room. There's something intangible going on that doesn't make any sense. If I can't measure it and describe it adequately then it doesn't exist,right? But it does exist. Vinyl has a magical power that very good digital can get close to, but not quite match. But I think it's more than just what we hear, it's the mood it creates and the merging of different stimuli.
Do your own thing, whatever floats your boat.

Get a job at the local Vinyl trading shop. Only buy what you want to listen to and then trade it when done. Work one day a week. When you factor in the benefit of the employee discount vinyl, the cost of storage, including housing costs. that low paying part-time job just doubled in wage with a
huge library at hand.   

[Freo-1]

True, but doesn't it strike anyone as a bit beyond the pale that people who don't like vinyl feel the need to come to place that is really a haven for vinylphiles for the express purpose of getting on a bully pulpit and bashing vinyl?  It is like they have to express their views in front of an audience that they damn well know is going to be, at the very least, not receptive, and at worst, hostile.  There are probably better, and more productive ways to entertain oneself than this, methinks.

I have been around forums a long time, and have seen countless threads on this topic.  None of them have ended well.  Some people don't know when enough is enough.  I do, so this will be my last comment in this thread.

Cheers.

--Jerome

Thanks for the thoughtful response.  If a given thread here is just bashing, then yes, would concur.  Although the title of the thread could have been more neutral, I did not find the article all that offensive.  The article did point out that there are a lot of younger people re-discovering vinyl, and compared to MP3 file, that is a positive.

As far as vinyl being superior across the board, that is a much different debate.  Obviously, there are different camps, and arguing that issue will often wind up at a dead end.  From a engineering standpoint, it's hard to argue vinyl is superior.  However, as we all know, there is more to the total musical listening experience than just the engineering. 

The major point I was making is that for classical, vinyl does not work for me.  I respect the fact that for others, that is not the case. 

[rooze]

Get a job at the local Vinyl trading shop. Only buy what you want to listen to and then trade it when done. Work one day a week. When you factor in the benefit of the employee discount vinyl, the cost of storage, including housing costs. that low paying part-time job just doubled in wage with a
huge library at hand.   

Not such a bad idea except my closest vinyl store is about 60 miles away. I quickly tired of scouring Craigslist and looking at old beat up junk that people thought was worth five bucks a record.
Pushing invisible files back and forth through the air does have its plus side 

[werd]

Not such a bad idea except my closest vinyl store is about 60 miles away. I quickly tired of scouring Craigslist and looking at old beat up junk that people thought was worth five bucks a record.
Pushing invisible files back and forth through the air does have its plus side 

I hear what you are saying and agree. Vinyl playback is now a luxury at best. Really, who can afford to store (mortgage cost heat...etc) vinyl these days? If you are in your 20s forget it. Apartments and vinyl do not co exist. Unless you are prepared to store a few good recordings and use a vinyl exchange store. I really do not see it surviving. The cost of housing property makes it unattainable where digital your entire collection can be on a couple of HDs that weigh only a few pounds.

[rollo]

  I look at it this way. To each his own. Live and let live. Saying that for me with a great LP library the music I own and love needs a TT. In direct comparison on a A+rated digital system LP is closer to real live music to my ears.
  If I did not own so many great recordings already my thoughts may be different on what I would use daily. Ya want to get in cheap. Then an  iphono, used Technics TT and Audio Technia OC9 cart. Then ya gotta buy records no free Cd downloads which IMHO is the real reason for this discussion not the sonic merits of either source.


charles

[*Scotty*]

Vinyl playback is now a luxury at best. Really, who can afford to store (mortgage cost heat...etc) vinyl these days? If you are in your 20s forget it. Apartments and vinyl do not co exist. Unless you are prepared to store a few good recordings and use a vinyl exchange store. I really do not see it surviving. The cost of housing property makes it unattainable where digital your entire collection can be on a couple of HDs that weigh only a few pounds.

I'm not buying this. Most of the vinyl renaissance is driven by purchases made by people in their 20s. I guess nobody told them about the downside of the medium. Apartments, lofts and vinyl have coexisted for a very long time, limited space has never stopped a vinyl lover from spinning the black discs.
 The purchase of any form of entertainment has always been luxury, this includes vinyl. It has always been an exercise in discretionary spending.
Scotty

[Scottdazzle]

I'm not buying this. Most of the vinyl renaissance is driven by purchases made by people in their 20s. I guess nobody told them about the downside of the medium. Apartments, lofts and vinyl have coexisted for a very long time, limited space has never stopped a vinyl lover from spinning the black discs.
 The purchase of any form of entertainment has always been luxury, this includes vinyl. It has always been an exercise in discretionary spending.
Scotty

+1 to everything Scotty said.  People find things to spend their money on once their needs are taken care of.  Back when I was a financially struggling young man in my 20's, I always found a way to buy the records I wanted most.