Damaged amplifier advice needed...Fedex delivery gone wrong!

mresseguie · « **on:** 20 Aug 2015, 01:07 am »

That's probably not the best subject line, and it really shouldn't be in this circle, but I can't figure out where to put. So here it is:

Last week on Audiogon I sold my Sim Audio amplifier to a fellow in CA. I placed it in its original shipping box, added extra padding, and taped it up. I shipped it Fedex Ground. I even insured it for the sale price just in case (I've read so many horror stories!). Well, the horror is mine now.

The package arrived at the buyer's home damaged. The back plate where the right-side terminals are located is jammed into the chassis. I've seen pics of it, and it's pretty bad. I kick myself for not double boxing it. I didn't box it because I decided insuring it (through Audiogon) was enough effort on my part. Wrong. Wrong! The buyer is not happy, of course. I'm not happy either. I immediately reported it to Audiogon. Pics have been sent in. Getting useful info out of Agon's service rep feels a lot like pulling a body out of tar sands. (Okay, I don't know what that's like, but I imagine it must be a really big pain in the ass.) hopefully, I'll be told something more useful tomorrow.

Anyway, the buyer wants a refund. I've told him I will refund his money as soon as I get useful info out of Agon and its insurance company. I'm trying to understand how this will be treated. Is it like a fender bender where the amp gets repaired and eventually returned to me? Or is it "totaled", scrapped, and check written to buyer or seller? Well, I don't know the answer, and neither do you, the reader.

I'd really like to hear from more experienced folks on how I ought to handle this. As I mentioned, I will make it right for the buyer, but I'm hoping to get clarity from Agon or its insurance company before handing money over. Do I wait until the amp is in my possession to refund the money (I'll pay to ship it)? Do I refund first before receiving the amp?

Help!

Thanks for any helpful advice.

Michael

robin67 · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 01:11 am »

You call and file a claim with fed ex and go from there , I wouldnt refund nothing till you or fed ex has the item . Ask Fed Ex if they are going to need the item or just pictures . Just tell the buyer youll refund him but you need to take the proper steps

kgturner · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 01:18 am »

Audiogon insurance? Is that a thing? I wasn't aware of that. Did you insure it via FedEx Ground?

Kevin T

mresseguie · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 01:25 am »

At this point I do not know if the insurance was through Fedex or some company that has a deal with Agon. Getting useful info.....tar sands.....

I'll contact Fedex now. Perhaps they'll offer some hint of a glimmer of help??

Michael

WGH · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 01:29 am »

Call or stop in your local FedEx shipper if you can. The UPS Store told me UPS has a double box requirement for all electronics to be covered. FedEx may or may not have a similar policy.

JerryM · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 01:30 am »

As a buyer, I would want my money back pronto. I would ship the damaged item back to you, the seller, immediately. I would provide you a tracking number, and expect my refund in short order.

As an insurance buyer, YOU are the *Insured*. Payments made by the Insurer will or will not be paid pursuant to the coverage terms you agreed to when you purchased the Plan. The buyer of the gear is an innocent victim, and deserves a full refund ASAP.

Even if your insurance claim is denied, the buyer of the gear is owed a full refund if he returns the amp to you.

Best of luck,

Jerry

mresseguie · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 01:40 am »

Just got off the phone with Fedex.

Because I used the shipping label that Audiogon offered, and because I paid Audiogon to insure the package, I am not the shipper. Audiogon is the shipper. The insurance is not with Fedex. It (presumably) went to an insurance company that insures packages for Audiogon.

Audiogon has not yet filed a claim with Fedex. I am not allowed to file a claim with Fedex because I am not the shipper nor am I the receiver. I am merely the seller. (still wrapping my head around this.) I NEED BEER!

I will contact the buyer asking him to file a claim with Fedex.

I will quietly go mad.

Have I forgotten anything?

robin67 · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 01:44 am »

I agree he needs to refund the buyer , but why would anyone issue a refund without the item being returned first , I would even cover return shipping so the buy is not out anything . But before shipping the item back he needs to see if fed ex wants to send an inspector out or pickup up item for inspection

robin67 · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 01:50 am »

Quote from: mresseguie on 20 Aug 2015, 01:40 am

Just got off the phone with Fedex.

Because I used the shipping label that Audiogon offered, and because I paid Audiogon to insure the package, I am not the shipper. Audiogon is the shipper. The insurance is not with Fedex. It (presumably) went to an insurance company that insures packages for Audiogon.

Audiogon has not yet filed a claim with Fedex. I am not allowed to file a claim with Fedex because I am not the shipper nor am I the receiver. I am merely the seller. (still wrapping my head around this.) I NEED BEER!

I will contact the buyer asking him to file a claim with Fedex.

Wow what a mess even if fed ex paid audiogon would get the check All you can do is contact Audiogon and ask what you should do

I will quietly go mad.

Have I forgotten anything?

. Good Luck you need to contact AUdiogon

JerryM · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 01:54 am »

Quote from: mresseguie on 20 Aug 2015, 01:40 am

Have I forgotten anything?

As long as you haven't forgotten that you are the *Seller*, and that the *Buyer* had no control over how you packaged, shipped, or insured the item, no. The buyer deserves a refund from the seller. All of the other shit belongs to the seller. It's Business Ethics 101...

mresseguie · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 02:06 am »

Quote from: JerryM on 20 Aug 2015, 01:54 am

As long as you haven't forgotten that you are the *Seller*, and that the *Buyer* had no control over how you packaged, shipped, or insured the item, no. The buyer deserves a refund from the seller. All of the other shit belongs to the seller. It's Business Ethics 101...

Yup. Got it.

I think I've made it clear to the buyer that I will refund his buy price, the shipping fee, and the Paypal fee. He will be out $0.00 because of this. Further, I will pay to have the amp double boxed, and I will pay shipping to my home.

Hopefully, I will learn a huge lesson from this.

Escott1377 · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 02:07 am »

Quote from: JerryM on 20 Aug 2015, 01:54 am

As long as you haven't forgotten that you are the *Seller*, and that the *Buyer* had no control over how you packaged, shipped, or insured the item, no. The buyer deserves a refund from the seller. All of the other shit belongs to the seller. It's Business Ethics 101...

Before any refund is issued, the insurance company needs to advise on how they plan on inspecting the claim, either via pictures or a site visit.

If the buyer sends the damaged item back to the seller, there will be some push back from the insurance company in regards to when the damage may have occurred.

This situations always suck, but Business Ethics 101 should also have an expectation from the buyer that the seller tried to protect the shipment w/ in a reasonable manner.

FWIW - any items that I sell go to Fed Ex or UPS and I pay for them to box and ship. It makes the claims process much easier since they are working w/ their own adjuster at that point. UPS damaged my speakers going back in for an upgrade and had to cut a check a for $4,200 for the repair. It was a small investment on my part for my sanity.

Good luck, in my experience, the wheels of justice turn pretty slow in these types of situations.

JerryM · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 02:13 am »

It sucks for both of you. Imagine the buyer - Saving money, for maybe a long time. He finally finds a dream amplifier, at a great price. He goes through convincing the SO that they *need* the amp. He gets clearance, and anxiously buys the amp. Nail biting every moment, he can't wait until it arrives. Then finally, the amp arrives.

I feel bad for both of you. I hope it all works out well.

kgturner · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 02:13 am »

In an insurance claim situation, FedEx will want to inspect the packaging. It is incumbent on the recipient to maintain all the packaging which the amplifier was received in. If possible, he should package it back up exactly as he received it. With the damage you described, the box should have significant damage on at least one side. I've had to file one claim with FedEx, but it was eventually paid. FedEx will likely send someone to the buyer's home to inspect the packaging. Typically, they want 4" of padding all the way around the insured item. Since you shipped it in the same packaging as the manufacturer ships it you *should* be fine. Now, with Audiogon being considered the shipper, that's a whole different ball of wax so this is uncharted territory from my experience.

Kevin T

JerryM · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 02:18 am »

Quote from: kgturner on 20 Aug 2015, 02:13 am

In an insurance claim situation, FedEx will want to inspect the packaging. It is incumbent on the recipient to maintain all the packaging which the amplifier was received in. If possible, he should package it back up exactly as he received it. With the damage you described, the box should have significant damage on at least one side. I've had to file one claim with FedEx, but it was eventually paid. FedEx will likely send someone to the buyer's home to inspect the packaging. Typically, they want 4" of padding all the way around the insured item. Since you shipped it in the same packaging as the manufacturer ships it you *should* be fine. Now, with Audiogon being considered the shipper, that's a whole different ball of wax so this is uncharted territory from my experience.

Kevin T

Really? So if you bought something from Sears, that arrived unusable, you'd tolerate that? Really??

The Seller hired an Agent (Audiogon) to handle the shipping. The Agent hired FedEx. FedEx damaged the shipment. How the hell is the buyer on the hook to do anything other than advise of a Return and ask for a refund?

RPM123 · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 02:19 am »

The shipper/insurance adjuster will need to pick up the damaged amp from the buyer. Under no circumstances should the buyer send the amp back to you, until the shipper has had a chance to inspect the amp. I have shipped gear that was damaged in transit and I have also received damaged gear. The shippers (FedEx and UPS) in both instances came to the respective buyers homes to inspect the damage.

kgturner · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 02:33 am »

Quote from: JerryM on 20 Aug 2015, 02:18 am

Really? So if you bought something from Sears, that arrived unusable, you'd tolerate that? Really??

The Seller hired an Agent (Audiogon) to handle the shipping. The Agent hired FedEx. FedEx damaged the shipment. How the hell is the buyer on the hook to do anything other than advise of a Return and ask for a refund?

The buyer didn't buy something from Sears. He bought a piece of used gear from a private seller. Yes it's a gigantic pain in the ass, but that's how shipping insurance works. The biggest mistake I see here right now was allowing Audiogon to handle the shipping details. They have no business being in this part of the transaction, in my opinion, because now the seller is blocked out of the process. But that's water under the bridge. I can't say where things should go from here. What I stated is how insurance claims work (at least when I had to make a claim).

Kevin T

JerryM · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 02:38 am »

I deal with insurance claims and litigation every single day of my life. I have for 27 years.

The seller is aware, or with a reasonable exercise in diligence would be aware, that the buyer is owed a full refund. The buyer has very real rights, even in a "private" transaction.

kgturner · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 02:43 am »

I never said the buyer was not due a refund or that he has to wait until the claim is paid. In my experience with claims, once the amplifier and packaging are given to the claims adjuster and the seller is notified as such then the refund is due.

Kevin T

Escott1377 · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Aug 2015, 12:18 pm »

Quote from: kgturner on 20 Aug 2015, 02:43 am

I never said the buyer was not due a refund or that he has to wait until the claim is paid. In my experience with claims, once the amplifier and packaging are given to the claims adjuster and the seller is notified as such then the refund is due.

Kevin T

Agreed. The buyer will simply need to exercise a small amount of patience until an adjuster can get on site. Who's to say the buyer did not drop the package while moving it upstairs in his residence?

Was a signature required for delivery? Did the buyer inspect the packaging before accepting shipment?

I think we are all making valid points in our advice, but in no way should the buyer just box the unit back up, return it, and expect a refund w/o allowing Fed Ex to participate in the claims process.

Agreed that these situations SUCK! The Sears example is not fair in my opinion. You are dealing w/ a big box store that can either accept the return and write the damage off, or may have their own shipping agent where they have the ability to negotiate w/o the participation of the buyer.