[Canada Rob]

As I go online to the various audio shows about the country, I can't help but noticing some high end companies showing some very expensive stand mount speakers that appear to be Dayton Audio cabinets.  I check further by going to that company's website and comparing dimensions and finding them to be the same.  I hope I'm totally mistaken, but I'd hate to pay out $5000 - $10,000 for a pair of speakers only to find they're nothing more than a kit cabinet adapted to that company's use.  At these prices the said companies should be building their own cabinets with the best possible materials available.

[Letitroll98]

Without naming names, can you illustrate some examples?  i.e. company A used such and such cabinet with such and such drivers.

[Bob in St. Louis]

If you're buying a sheet of MDF, what difference does it make who ran it though a table saw, and used a router bit to make some circles?

I'm not being difficult, just curious.

As a "shadetree speaker builder", you could either have a guy like me build your speakers by hand, with all those subtle flaws, or you could have Dayton (undoubtedly) use a high dollar CNC machine to precisely cut that $30 sheet of MDF.
...granted...some of us wouldn't use MDF given a choice, but you see my point....

[RDavidson]

For $5k-$10k I'd expect something better than off-the-shelf cabinets too.
I mean, if there are folks out there taking completely off-the-shelf parts and simply designing speakers from computer simulation or taking others' build plans and charging $$$, there's something wrong.......unless buyers are aware of it and are perfectly cool with it. This somewhat reminds me of the time Lexicon re-badged / re-cased Oppo BDP-95's, then charged $$$$$ for them.

[Canada Rob]

Letitroll98,
Mine is only a suspicion and I would not dare injure the reputation of a speaker company.  What if I'm wrong.  It's up to each individual to do their own research as I've done mine.

Bob in St. Louis,
I assume by "shadetree" you mean DIY.  Some DIYers do beautiful work with high quality materials.
Subtile flaws?  I've been dealing in hand built speakers for years and see no more flaws in them than I see in speakers that are CNC'd in a factory.  If anything I see less.
The Dayton cabinets, at the paltry price they charge are likely made in China with the cheapest possible materials.....and labour (we won't go there).  MDF can very hugely in quality, and a truly good speaker will be made from some of the best MDF which by comparison is not cheap.  Would you be happy paying $5000 - $10,000 for a pair of speakers in Dayton cabinets?

[Bob in St. Louis]

"Shadetree" = DIY ("Yes")
That's what I mean.

"Subtle flaws" - because the driver is 1/16" closer to one side of the cabinet than the other. Nothing to fixate on, just...."subtle"....

MDF - I would be very happy if I never see MDF again in my life. Not sure if Dayton/PartsExpress uses voidless Baltic Birch or not, but I (personally) think I've got a leg up on them in that respect.
MDF is for noobs.

Would I be happy paying $5,000 - $10,000 for Dayton cabinets? ........... 
I can't fathom how much quality material I could buy and how many projects I could build with that much money.
So, "no", I don't want ten grand worth of MDF cabinets, considering the average speaker cabinet would use less than $200 in materials to make.
But that's me, I'll never pay somebody to make my speakers for me when I can do it myself. What you're paying for when you talk about several thousand, is the entire package. The XO network, the final finish, the drivers, etc..etc..etc...

[undertow]

Your suspicions are absolutely correct. There are several kitchen table companies, and even more professional ones using Dayton 65 dollar cabinets in their several thousand dollar designs. I have ran across many, but don't even remember them all!

I can also tell you some are covering this up a little better now getting custom baffles cut throwing out the Dayton basic black baffles in order to make the joints, and materials look different than what you think looking at the cabinet online from Dayton empty.

But in short they are 100% the same cabinet. Whether this makes a huge difference in quality arguments or not is really beside the point. For example Krell, or Thiel, or Dynaudio using their MDF vs. whoevers MDF won't really make a difference, but I do agree in the fact these lesser known companies doing it are getting far higher markups. But fact is most speakers that can cost 2500.00 to 5000.00 retail are literally built with 250 to 500 dollar MDF cabinets, and about 600 to 700 in part's, and drivers anyway.

Finish whether paint, or veneer is the biggest cost to any cabinet, and CNC machines are not cheap so recovering the cost of having a 100,000 dollar good CNC router pumping out cabinets will only come back by having 200% to 500% markups on every pair sold, and still take a very long time to pay off that investment.

I use to work for a distributor, and it would shock most to see how much a speaker actually costs, same with CABLES> We use to pay $223.00 bucks for a pair of speakers that retailed at 1200.00! And cables forget it, we paid like 5 bucks for a cable we would sell from 15 to 100.00 bucks retail.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Yes. That.

[mrhyfy]

I think this points out the arbitrary pricing of "high end".....not necessarily representative of the cost of manufacture.    Whatever the market will bear!

[Folsom]

I think this is getting a little wild. Yes I'd be concerned about paying thousands of dollars for Dayton cabinets, but less so if the drivers cost a few thousand. In fact it might be a good way to pay $5000 for a speaker that has drivers that cost of $1k a piece.

The thing you all leave out is that living people assemble things and sell them. If the world worked based on what YOU can pay for unassembled parts, and use hundreds to thousands of dollars worth of tools to assemble... news flash, IT CAN'T, actually. Maybe I'm not into skeezy stuff like fakeness and markup that's unusual, but should people make less than the $5/hr federal minimum wage to serve you?

[JLM]

From what I've seen, the Dayton cabinets are quite nice.  The veneer looks great and MDF versus baltic birch probably makes little sonic difference in a small cabinet.  OTOH some manufacturers go nearly crazy with impressively overbuilt or finished cabinets.  But I'd rather put my money into a sensible balance of cabinet versus guts (drivers/crossover) and have a finish that goes with the rest of my furnishings (not embarrass them).  If I were running a small business of designing and building speakers I'd run to the Daytons as a high value/low overhead attribute and plow the cost into better components.

Yes retailing adds 50% to MSRP, distribution another 15%, and it's sickening to find out how little of the MSRP goes into speaker guts.  On average I'd say as much goes into aesthetics as the guts of all types of stereo gear.  And the high end stuff offers the worst value or content value.  All good arguments for DIY.  Obviously you might expect better cabinets for $25,000 speakers, but using the above percentages a $5000 pair of speakers would leave the manufacturer $1700 for materials, labor, overhead, marketing, and profit.  That could leave $1000 for labor and materials.  A pair of 0.75 cu. ft. cherry veneered cabinets from Parts Express is $300, leaving $700 for drivers and crossover plus something for labor, stuffing, and bits.  Not an unreasonable split IMO.

[Folsom]

The merger of fine craftsmanship with functionality is a big win for me. But I've come to enjoy fine craftsmanship. I like what it represents.

That said, I can tell you that CNC routing can be awesome or awful. The grade of material in it, tolerances, and setup mean the world. Frankly all forms of wood aren't too impressive for being utterly perfect parts. Wood is better measured in it's summized quality. A good wood joiner isn't something you see much outside of magazines in your day to day life; even when you do, they do it for fun because people won't pay a respectable amount for it very consistently so you either make less money doing regular stuff or get a job that pays for the hobby. Most people can't identify rather good wood working unless it's the size of a jewelry box; and most don't care.

[Early B.]

From what I've seen, the Dayton cabinets are quite nice. 

Yep. Just seems like a good business strategy -- using Dayton cabinets saves a lot of time and it (hopefully) puts the money where it counts the most. Many audiophiles can appreciate that. If you want a piece of art, there are plenty of awesome speaker manufacturers who do that. 

[bladesmith]

MDF is a good product, it all depends on the craftsman handling it. MDF must be "sealed on all sides" when the project is completed or it will absorb moisture from the air and eventually breakdown prematurely. Many manufacturers both big and small use MDF and it works well, but if you leave any of the MDF exposed, over a period of time it WILL expand and contract and break down, unless you keep it in a very stable environment that has a very low, constant humidity level. And most, not all, people have homes that have constant humidity level changes.

Again, the key is to seal all sides of the MDF. A good quality paint or veneer will work. Also using 1.5" or thicker MDF helps CONSIDERABLY..

(sorry for the lengthy reply. but, those are the facts, JACK....!)

V....

[Rick Craig]

As I go online to the various audio shows about the country, I can't help but noticing some high end companies showing some very expensive stand mount speakers that appear to be Dayton Audio cabinets.  I check further by going to that company's website and comparing dimensions and finding them to be the same.  I hope I'm totally mistaken, but I'd hate to pay out $5000 - $10,000 for a pair of speakers only to find they're nothing more than a kit cabinet adapted to that company's use.  At these prices the said companies should be building their own cabinets with the best possible materials available.

We use some of the Dayton cabinets and I know of a few other companies that do. We also do custom cabinets that are 100% assembled and finished here in North Carolina. The Dayton cabinets allow us to provide speakers at a lower cost with a short delivery time. The majority of these speakers are in the $900-3,300/pair range with some higher where we modify the cabinet for a custom veneer, front trim, and add a clear finish.

Whether a cabinet is supplied direct or "off-the-shelf" isn't really important as long as it serves the purpose of the designer. I've seen cabinets from much larger manufacturers that are lower in quality, and that includes enclosures built in the USA and overseas. I'm not sure which companies are you referring to but you also need to consider the parts content to decide whether they are worth $5-10K. It's not unusual for speakers in that price range to have nice cabinets and mediocre to fair quality parts.

[Rick Craig]

Keep in mind too that long before the cabinets appeared at Parts Express the same manufacturer was making them for other speaker companies.

[WireNut]

Delete

[brother love]

My whole mid-fi system is $5k, so talk of $5k- $10k speakers is out of my league. So I don't have a dog in this fight, but still ...

Am I the only here on AC that finds it extremely distasteful that a specific-brand speaker rep is ragging on other speakers & initiates the topic in a  general forum ?   

[Letitroll98]

My whole mid-fi system is $5k, so talk of $5k- $10k speakers is out of my league. So I don't have a dog in this fight, but still ...

Am I the only here on AC that finds it extremely distasteful that a specific-brand speaker rep is ragging on other speakers & initiates the topic in a  general forum ?   

I was also concerned, and have been keeping a close eye on this thread.  There is nothing that prevents any industry participant from starting or posting in any thread, as long as it's not used to promote their products.  Rob hasn't mentioned his speaker line and Rick only mentioned his in answer to the op's query, so everyone has followed the rules even in the strictest interpretation.  And I'll add that I find the whole thread interesting and informative, so in its present form it's staying.  But you're correct in that the subject being posted by a speaker company's rep suggests close monitoring is in order.

[undertow]

MDF = Termite puke in general 

What are you gonna do it's an industry standard, and it works pretty well for what it is... But mostly its just cheap, and very easy to manufacture which is why its so widely used. I even had a pair of $15,000 speakers that use MDF. I have no problem with somebody using MDF or pre-made MDF because well again its a pretty much a standard industry approach. Just don't accidentally drop it a little cockeyed on a corner and MDF cabinets are fine.

I simply did verify that the original poster was not crazy about his observation I had no idea he was a manufacturer? Value vs. Quality argument is something that can be had all day, and all night. However, some speakers are highly over valued no question about that.

But everybody would have to go the way of Magico or Wilson etc... using full aluminum, or "Magic materials" etc... and pay for all the marketing with additional material costs so its up to you if the additional cost your going to pay pushing your speakers up another 5,000 to 10,000 is worth it. 

I know even Zu another American company finally dumped MDF years ago and went to a birch ply as I think people were sorta pushing them for better cabinets at the price points.
 
At the end of the day I am sure its no mystery speaker building is hardly rocket science