[bladesmith]

Back in the 70's particle board was prominant.  Manufacturers then went to MDF because of it's superior sound quality and density.  Today ply and bamboo are very popular.  There is high quality MDF, ply, and bamboo, and there are top notch speakers made of all these materials, as on the contrary there is garbage MDF, ply, and bamboo.  Also, any material will get damaged if you drop it on a corner, so that argument is a moot point. 

When properly contsructed, MDF is very stable, not to mention it's an excellent blank canvas for any type of finish, especially veneer.  A good speaker designer chooses his material based on his design first, aesthetics second.  Some designs are best with MDF, some ply, some bamboo. I have no problem with the Dayton cabinets in their proper context - a budget speaker or DIY project.  In speakers costing from $2000 to $10,000 (like what I'm seeing at the shows) I have serious concerns.  Just my 2.56 cents worth (Canadian funds)

I'll have to agree. And to expand. The quality of ply woods/MDF vary from country to country. And you must consider the source. You can get either, quality form, or very poor. It changes from decade to decade. Also, how you handle your product in your shop, is a concern.

My EXTRA 2 cents.....

V....

[bladesmith]

The first time I watched air pass through MDF like it wasn't even there, when used as a wasteboard on a CNC vacuum table, I said I'd never use MDF in a cabinet again!  But there are a lot more reasons not to use MDF.  Honestly, the only thing MDF has going for it is cheap and easy.  Cheap is the entire point of MDF, they sweep up the waste product off the floor of the mill and press it into a board. 

And as somebody else mentioned, MDF comes in a wide range of 'qualities'.  When we do use MDF (never mount drivers to it), we use an ultra-refined product called Plum Creek that is formaldehyde free and is 100% plantation grown pine.  It's much denser edge to edge, without that fuzzy velvet feel in the middle of the cross section.  It's better, but still BB Ply, especially BB Ply on the end grain, is much much better.  But back to the PE cabinets, my issue with them isn't so much that they're MDF, or that they're made in China, it's that the MDF they use is a very low quality.  We use the cabinets in our entry level stuff, but only after extensive mods.  When we're done the cabinets weigh 3x what they do to start, that's the only way I'll use them.  And I NEVER use their baffles.  The baffles that come with the cabinets are the cheapest MDF I've ever seen, you can literally peel layers off with your fingernails, it's like they're made of pressed toilet paper.

Plum Creek is MDF, from what I understand, and they also have different grades.
What grade of MDF do you prefer when you buy Plum Creek ?

http://www.plumcreek.com/wood-products/medium-density-fiberboard/product-specifications

V...

[JLM]

The cabinet affects all frequencies, not just bass.  Cabinet resonances, edge diffraction, sound transmission through the walls, standing waves, internal backwave reflections, I could go on.  Thinking cabinets only affect bass is fooling yourself.

You're very right, I should have defined what I meant by "the cabinet has only direct effect on frequencies below 300 Hz".

[Canada Rob]

The cabinet affects all frequencies, not just bass.  Cabinet resonances, edge diffraction, sound transmission through the walls, standing waves, internal backwave reflections, I could go on.  Thinking cabinets only affect bass is fooling yourself.

Totally agree.

[poseidonsvoice]

I think this reply from AVS is now relevant here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=136735.msg1455770#msg1455770

Best,
Anand.

[Taterworks]

It is rare for me to see a thread on a forum that just makes me angry. But now you've gone and done it.

I can scarcely think of a more misplaced or cowardly dig at a speaker than the origin of its cabinetry. The Parts Express veneered/gloss cabinets in particular (whether or not they were available/sourced by another company prior to PE) are fantastic; they are of a level of build quality that many companies building their own cabinets in Europe/North America still do not match, despite their marketing bluster to the contrary. Get close to a fully custom wood cabinet from one of these companies, inspect the seams, feel the quality of the finish, then take a look at one of the PE cabinets in any of the finishes offered - they are equal to or better than what anyone, including the big boys like Revel or Bowers & Wilkins are doing. If there is one area of high-end audio products which the Chinese have perfectly nailed, it's building and finishing a high quality wooden speaker cabinet. And the smart manufacturers will go wherever they need to in order to find this type of build quality at an accessible price. Anywhere else you look in the world, you'll pay 2x-5x the price for the cabinet alone, before finishes.

This negative attitude toward some small manufacturer's use of off-the-shelf cabinets is no different to me than someone attacking a speaker company because they've managed to weave lower cost drivers from Dayton/Silver Flute/Tymphany into a product that outperforms one built with Scan-Speak or SEAS drivers, for instance. If anything, it takes more skill on the part of the designer to honestly assess the strengths and weaknesses of lower-priced off-the-shelf components chosen for the design, whether that's the cabinet, port tubes, terminal plates, drivers, or crossover components. If you have such a low regard for small independent loudspeaker manufacturers that you only see the worth of a finished loudspeaker product as the sum total BOM cost of its parts and nothing more, then I'll happily sell you a pile of parts and it's up to you to assemble them somehow - without plans or other prior design work - into a functioning speaker, no less a high-performing one. (Give up yet? And was it worth your time and effort?) It's no surprise that the people who rush to devalue the work that goes into designing, assembling, testing, and consistently delivering a high quality speaker have never attempted it themselves, so they have no idea what they're even talking about. Speaker manufacturers are selling a product that performs to a certain level, and provides a certain level of material and finish quality, plus service and support after the sale, and a brand name that says the product is trustworthy. They are not just selling a box full of parts; the lion's share of the product's value is always added in the design, tuning, assembly, and quality control these manufacturers provide. Otherwise, all you have is the box of parts.

Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. You are perfectly welcome to be foolish enough to dismiss a world-class speaker because of where its cabinet or some other component comes from or what it costs, but please stop expecting others to join you in that foolishness.

[undertow]

Hmm,

I guess taterworks has a point, but missed the real issue all together. Basically the argument was that you cannot use cabinets that cost 150.00 per pair wholesale, and put 500 more in kit parts off the shelf, and expect somebody to pay 5000.00 to 7000.00 for them I think was more the question here which has been done out there believe it or not. However, I do agree nothing wrong with fundamentals of this cabinet, and you can build a perfectly fine performing speaker with them no doubt.

[Taterworks]

No, Undertow, you missed the point. I read the thread just fine, including your earlier posts. The point is that the cabinets (or drivers, or crossover parts) can come from anywhere and cost anything, and if the net effect (visual, performance, durability) of the product is identical or better than products in a certain price range, then the manufacturer has every right to charge that amount for their speaker, and reap huge profits through their cleverness. That is how commerce works, and will work long after you and I are dead and gone. Live with it, and if you can afford the speakers, then buy them.

If you really care so much, and want to save the world from this type of thinking, go ahead and start a company to sell equivalent products for their "fair" (in your own estimation) price and see how long you stay in business with razor-thin margins on top of the total cost, just because the parts cost was low.

This mud-slinging is idiotic.

[DS-21]

***The Parts Express veneered/gloss cabinets in particular (whether or not they were available/sourced by another company prior to PE) are fantastic; they are of a level of build quality that many companies building their own cabinets in Europe/North America still do not match, despite their marketing bluster to the contrary.

Agreed, this part and the rest of your post. There's a shocking lack of understanding how capitalism works in this thread.

I do PE they had more contemporary finishes, though. The whole speaker industry seems ignorant of the "espresso" trend in home furnishings, for instance.

And von Schweikert should be ashamed of himself [edit] for the above-quoted post [/edit].

[undertow]

Okay... I stand corrected and you are in the right to believe it's a good value at any price you wish.

As for capitalism just because Wall Street tells you a double wide should now be worth as much as a 300,000 dollar house and you decide to buy it so be it... Never said you can't believe! Does not mean I will fall for the same trick and see it being worth more than what it is ... A 20,000 dollar tin box on wheels.

Point is it's about real value and if you believe that 5000 invested into Dayton cabinets is the way to go over far better choices at that price point which I am sure there are many as pointed out here so be it. I have no problem with it, just stating my opinion on the topic. There is a sucker born every minuet so no I don't feel the need to save the world with another speaker company, and that again was never the point here.

By the way I never attacked Von schweikert and I think it was already pointed out they have nothing to do with Dayton basic ported cabinets so not sure what is even being talked about in that regard.

[Taterworks]

 

If the speaker performs, looks, and lasts like other speakers in the same price range, the value proposition is very close to THE SAME, and not skewed, as Undertow and others are saying. Where the cabinets come from, what they cost Von Schweikert, and so forth is purely immaterial. It just doesn't matter, at all. What matters is the amount that the Unifield 1, 2, and 3 models are sold for, and what you could get for the same money.

Albert Von Schweikert already said he isn't buying the cabinets from PE, and I take him at his word, although some other small independent mfgs have come forth and said they do start with the PE cabinets. But AVS is a businessman, just as everyone else with a successful loudspeaker outfit (or any other manufacturing company) must be, in order to survive. I don't see anything that he has to apologize to anyone for, least of all having a top-flight Chinese high-end speaker cabinet manufacturer making his cabinets. You have to take the product for what it is as a finished unit, and STOP looking at the BOM cost of this or that component to decide whether you're getting "a value". See my earlier ranting about how loudspeakers are not just a box full of parts - there is much more to them than what you have when you take a screwdriver to the damn thing and take it completely apart. If you don't believe me on that point, go buy the cabinets from PE, the drivers from Madisound, build yourself a speaker, and quit complaining.

There is a difference between "not understanding", and refusing to see (for the sake of argument, pride, whatever).

[Folsom]

First of all... I challenege every single one of you to make a speaker as good as the Unfield. Good. Luck.

Next up, Albert doesn't use the same cabinets PE sells, he uses the same manufacturer and orders totally different specs that fit in the same shape, and then adds a labor intensive process to build a tiny transmission-line/thing after stuffing it to high heaven with dampening material. Then he puts in two drivers, neither on the super cheap side, and one a custom version of an existing driver. After that he runs an F'ing company with people and has to provide prices where a dealer can get a cut etc.

There's a reason why there's a bunch of formerly available smoking deals on speakers... The people couldn't afford to stay in business! And you're dead in the water on customer support if you bought them.

The markup isn't about the parts as much as it's about a realistic price to be able to continue business. I've never personally seen a legit price complaint once I started to understand people shouldn't be bending and breaking themselves into the poor bankrupt house for consumer pleasure's idealistic costs.

Go do DIY if you want bang for a buck. If you can't that's your problem, and you're not a victim of markup.

You want to talk markup? Ever bought a light from Home Depot? They have 400% markup, now compare that to typical 35% of a HiFi shop.

[DaveC113]

It is rare for me to see a thread on a forum that just makes me angry. But now you've gone and done it.

You are correct, but so is everyone else. People are free to define value any way they like as it is their own money they are spending. You may only be concerned with the final result, but some people are concerned about what they would consider unfair markups. This is where it becomes a personal decision on what they consider a fair value. Or they may consider the fact that the cab is made in China to be a con because of the possibility the product is made of inferior materials that may be poisonous, and assembled in a sub-par manner by underpaid workers in a factory that pollutes badly. Or they may consider that the designer didn't even bother to design a cabinet that they feel is optimal, instead taking the lazy way out and buying off the shelf parts. Or that the cabinet is not unique and that they basically have the same speaker as thousands of DIY'ers that spent a lot less. Or other stuff, IDK... I don't necessarily agree with any or all of the above but I don't get bent out of shape because others do.   

In the case of the VSA and Selah it's pretty likely you're getting one of the best performing speakers for the price, they offer high value and using off the shelf cabs helps achieve that value for their lower priced speakers. It's not so they can just make more money off consumers that don't know any better, anyone buying from these guys is doing their homework.

Personally, I would rather own cabs that are made in the USA but if I choose that I know I'll have to pay more, and sometimes good made in the USA options aren't even available anymore. But I, along with most I'd guess, do place some value on their products being made in the USA when possible.

[Letitroll98]

A couple of things here.  One, while it's fine to have a spirited debate, please be mindful of statements that might be construed as a personal attack.  I don't think we've gone further than a couple of snarky comments, but that can soon escalate if you don't think about what you're actually saying.  Secondly, I'm not really clear on where the debate is going.  I don't think anyone has suggested that running a company that designs, manufactures, and sells speakers is a cheap enterprise and that any such company should sell at bargain basement prices.  The question was rather are PE cabinets used for higher priced speaker models, and that's been answered from several quarters to the effect yes, but with major modifications, and no, they're not at all the same except for both being manufactured in China.  My question is for the "no" (AVS) parties.  Are your cabinets the exact same size as the PE cabinets, or do they simply resemble the same size and shape?  If they are the same dimensions, why?   

[srb]

Some of the Parts Express Dayton cabinet buyers have complained about poor quality internal bracing that in some cases had 1/8" to 1/4" gaps, so if a speaker builder does use those cabinets, hopefully any imperfections like those are addressed on a per cabinet basis if required.

On the other hand, while I might be pleased overall with these imported cabinets, I would source some custom North American built cabinets (even if painted satin black) before I would wrap the Dayton cabinets with $500 - $1000 of custom veneer.

Steve

[Duke]

My question is for the "no" (AVS) parties.  Are your cabinets the exact same size as the PE cabinets, or do they simply resemble the same size and shape?  If they are the same dimensions, why?

I'm not associated with AVS, but I can think if two reasons why their dimensions might be exactly the same:

First, maybe those dimensions make very efficient use of board space and assembly jigs and workers who have it down pat.

Second, maybe the PE box was very thoughtfully designed as far as internal volume and internal dimension ratios, and/or maybe the VSA version has slightly different internal volume and internal dimensions that are ideal for their design, and it just so happened that fit like a glove in the Parts Express box's dimensions.

Recently I designed a compact speaker and when I was done the dimensions were within 1/2" of a corresponding Parts Express box.  Building the boxes myself would cost me about three times as much as the PE box, and almost twice as much as if I bought the PE box and hot-rodded it with strategically placed constrained layer damping (if needed) and my own custom baffle.   

[G Georgopoulos]

The cabinet affects all frequencies, not just bass.  Cabinet resonances, edge diffraction, sound transmission through the walls, standing waves, internal backwave reflections, I could go on.  Thinking cabinets only affect bass is fooling yourself.

Hi Vapor

Are you kidding me right?

what about filling material that dampens these things
anyway most midrange and tweeters are back shielded
for
cabinet resonance you put reinforced frames etc.

I disagree with you...

[ricardojoa]

Hi Vapor

Are you kidding me right?

what about filling material that dampens these things
anyway most midrange and tweeters are back shielded
for
cabinet resonance you put reinforced frames etc.

I disagree with you...

You need to look at outside cabinets as well.
I think you should do more research on this before commenting on vapor.

[G Georgopoulos]

You need to look at outside cabinets as well.
I think you should do more research on this before commenting on vapor.

The good thing is my post is up there for people to judge,what you say to me makes no sense...

[ricardojoa]

The good thing is my post is up there for people to judge,what you say to me makes no sense...

Of course it doesn't make sense to you. That why I'm suggesting you to do a bit more research.