[matthewpartrick]

what I'd like to do is upgrade the speakers, currently Polk left/right towers, a polk powered sub, polk center channel and polk dipoles, and continue to use those as the video surround system in the living room.  But I'd also like to use the upgraded front left/right towers (brand to be determined) as the main speakers in an audiophile grade system, while still using the Denon AV receiver to power them during video use only.

Could I use the preamp out on the Denon to supply an external audiophile grade amp that was powering only the front channels, while allowing the Denon's internal amp to continue powering the surround dipoles, center channel, and signal out to the powered sub?  That way during home theater use we'd be using surround sound processing for movies and would then switch to two channel for music playback.  Make sense?

Thanks

[Austin08]

You could do it but you have to run in 2.1 mode. If you only want to run 2.0 then you have to turn EQ off. There is better option is using 2 channel preamp with HT bypass, imo.

[bladesmith]

Yea, that's easy, buy a W4S DAC2. It has the right options.

[benguin]

I did this for a while with my Denon, and I would think most of them have the capability to do that pretty easily.  I just switched modes on the remote between "Standard", which was set up for Dolby PL 7.2 and "Stereo"  (with EQ) or "Direct" (no EQ) for 2.0 or 2.1 set up.  There might be another step, depending on how you set things up to either run the R&L full range (Large) or with the cross over (Small) and sub.

Since then I've switched to running everything with two separate amps with a notable increase in center channel performance for HT use.

[ctviggen]

You could do it but you have to run in 2.1 mode. If you only want to run 2.0 then you have to turn EQ off. There is better option is using 2 channel preamp with HT bypass, imo.

This is what I did, too.  I used a Dodd tube battery preamp with HT bypass.

[Phil A]

I run preamps with HT Bypass (and separate two channel amps) in two separate systems.   Works well.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Here's my advice.....
I spent years telling the (old and stupid) guys on various audio/HT forums they were wrong when they said "You can't successfully have one system do two duties".
Well...it took me about ten years, but I finally proved all those bastards wrong. I built a great sounding audio system and a great HT rig.

Then, a piece on the video side of things died. No problem, I'll buy another one. No problem.
Well, turns out, there was a problem. It's a newer version and has never software/firmware versions of things like "HDCP".
The new replacement wasn't compatible with my "old" (five year) AVR.
Ok.....I can overcome this problem by throwing more money at it, right? So I bought another AVR.

Sounded like hell on the two channel audio (it was fine for HT). I returned the AVR, and bought a different brand. It sounded even worse than the first one!
So I bought the same brand, but a couple steps better quality. Sounded better than the first two, but still not as good as "what I use to have".

To this day, the "sound" I had so carefully fine tuned to my liking has never returned. The music no longer plays in my system. Only HT.
For music, I now listen to my PC speakers.

In my opinion....oh wait....in the opinion of all those "old stupid guys", you can't do HT and 2 channel in one system.
I spent a lot of money, to ultimately end up agreeing with them.
That is, unless you have the money to continue "the chase" when equipment manufactures change things like HDMI/HDCP that forces you to chase those dominoes that are falling over.

Sorry to be a buzz kill.

Bob - HT guy.

[Early B.]

In my opinion.... you can't do HT and 2 channel in one system.

Yep. Merging an audiophile two channel system with a home theater system is incompatible. My HT and 2-channel systems share front speakers, but that's it. I even use separate speaker cables and switch them out when watching a movie. 

[WGH]

You guys are making this waaaay to complicated. This is what I did:

First off, ditch the AVR. Is it gone? Good, now we can build something that works and sounds good too.

Get a nice 2 channel preamp and amp. Now you have the hard part done - an excellent sounding stereo.
Pick up an Outlaw 975 HDMI AV Surround Processor for $549.
Get a Van Alstine 240/3 for the center and surround channels. You will have more clear, clean power than a run-of-the-mill AVR and center channel clarity without harshness at any volume you can handle.

All HDMI's go into the Outlaw, line outs into the preamp AUX input (main L & R) and the AVA 240.3 (center, surround, sub)

Need calibration? Pick up a Radio Shack 33-2050 Sound Level Meter on ebay for $20.

You can figure out the rest it's that simple.

Wayne

[ctviggen]

I ran my modified squeezebox and any other two channel sources into my Dodd preamp.  I played all two channel through the Dodd and a nice 2-channel amp.  If desired, some of the 2-channel sources can also be run into the AVR.  I used the AVR for movies and used the HT bypass for movies. 

I think it's too hard to build two different systems.  You'd need two different rooms, and most people don't have that kind of real estate.  I'd rather sink money into one room, and make it sound proof and acoustically correct, and get the system to serve two purposes.  Otherwise, you'd have to sink money into two rooms. 

[poseidonsvoice]

I ran my modified squeezebox and any other two channel sources into my Dodd preamp.  I played all two channel through the Dodd and a nice 2-channel amp.  If desired, some of the 2-channel sources can also be run into the AVR.  I used the AVR for movies and used the HT bypass for movies. 

I think it's too hard to build two different systems.  You'd need two different rooms, and most people don't have that kind of real estate.  I'd rather sink money into one room, and make it sound proof and acoustically correct, and get the system to serve two purposes.  Otherwise, you'd have to sink money into two rooms.

I beg to differ with all due respect.

I didn't sink money into 2 rooms. Only one. My system in all honesty is outstanding. See my systems page for details. A great 2 channel room is even better for HT. With multiple subs. And a custom room.

Nearly everything was DIY and retail equipment was bought used or B stock.

Yes, it can be done. Vinyl, digital and HT. I don't mix my HT through my 2 channel preamp (modified Bent TAP-X, see Poseidon's Voice Lazarus build elsewhere on Bents forum). Or vice versa through my AVP. I have 2 sets of speaker cables and I manually switch them when I switch to HT.(Everybody is waiting for the projector to warm up anyway!) Maybe 5 min max. No HT pollution of the 2 channel, all the way down to separate Uberbusses for each system. Fidelity is slightly less with HT but nobody cares. I am building a tricked out 7 channel amp though, just for fun!

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;user=38485

And I spent a heck less than several of the 2 channel snooty fellas out there who have $25k+ speakers with crappy bass, shrill highs and very poor directivity control.

Best,
Anand.

[Early B.]

You guys are making this waaaay to complicated. This is what I did:

First off, ditch the AVR. Is it gone? Good, now we can build something that works and sounds good too.

Get a nice 2 channel preamp and amp. Now you have the hard part done - an excellent sounding stereo.

For 2-channel, he'll still need a DAC and a transport. The OP wants to build an "audiophile grade" 2-channel system. To achieve that goal, he certainly can't use his DVD player as the source. With these four component purchases, he's back to building two separate systems.

[JLM]

Of course it depends on how picky you are.  Benguin offers the simplest, most obvious, but least satisfactory solution.  At the other extreme, the ultimate solution is impossible because the ideal room designs and speaker/listening location setups differ.

Really easy for us to spend your money isn't it?     What is your budget (for new mains)?

Can't really think of a main speaker that would be close to ideal for my musical tastes (classical/jazz small ensembles) and typical HT effects, but artificial/amplified (synthetic/amplified music) would be more compatible with HT.  I'd look for neutral/dynamic mains.  It will be important to timbre (colorations/tonal imperfections) match the mains to your existing center channel so they blend as much as possible (or just buy a matching center channel).

If budget allows I'd look for small mains and put the savings into a high capacity (low frequency/high output) sealed subwoofer.  This would reduce demands on the amplifier section of your receiver and allow more money to find the best bass compromise between music and HT. 

[WGH]

For 2-channel, he'll still need a DAC and a transport. The OP wants to build an "audiophile grade" 2-channel system. To achieve that goal, he certainly can't use his DVD player as the source. With these four component purchases, he's back to building two separate systems.

But of course he will need the front end stuff, I didn't think I needed to state the obvious and actually it will be one great stereo system with a surround processor and a 3 channel amp.

For a long time I used an Adcom amp for the surrounds and an old bridged NAD for the center. The pre-amp in old NAD stuff is just OK but the amp section is killer, luckily you can remove the jumpers, slide the switch to bridged mono and use the amp.

[benguin]

I hesitated to reply on this one, knowing everyone has a preference (and budget).  I view this just like cars, which is why there are so many different opinions and manufacturers/models.  SUV/sedan/pickup?  v8/turbo 4/hybrid? Ford/Chevy/Kia/Tesla/GMC/Honda/Porsche? 

Based on the OP's question, it was very similar to what I've been through so put my experience out there, and this is definitely "your mileage may vary".

When asked, I recommend people audition when possible and work within their budget.  My approach for my current build was to start with the best speakers I could afford and upgrade from there when feasible or meaningful. Very similar to Matthew's path.  Room treatment definitely should be a consideration as well.

I will say that for me, running 2 channel through a quality two channel pre-amp does produce cleaner sound, but depending on the recording or source the AVR can come close with some of patience. I would hate to call it a "least satisfactory solution".  My mains and center are accurate and smooth for both HT and 2 channel, my subs are very valuable for the "HT effects", less so for 2 channel.  To my ears, the real trade off in the set up proposed is AVR vs pre-amp where it turns into a weighted preference for convenience and features vs clean pass through and accuracy for multi-channel vs 2 channel.

I do appreciate all the conversation this generates and hope you all will continue posting in.
  Ben   

[Bob in St. Louis]

^^ That was a good post, thank you.

[*Scotty*]

Home theater came along for the ride with my two channel rig. I was watching movies on video tape through my hi-fi rig in mono and later in STEREO!. Then came the Laser Disc player in the system feeding MGIIIs and stereo subs with STEREO sound. Later a FOSGATE 360 Space Matrix processor driving a NAD 3020 with SMGs for the rear channels. I then just went on to just 2 channels and most of the time I never missed the rear channels. 
 I still watch movies in stereo and am quite satisfied with the resulting sound. I have also never needed a center channel as the phantom center from two channel reproduction has been as solid as having a speaker in the center. I do have full frequency response speakers,
so the low frequency effects are fully present and accounted for.
 If you can be satisfied with watching movies in stereo instead of X number of surround channels, then serving both music and home theater needs is not a problem. The accurate low bass reproduction that is a requirement for listening to music can be nothing but beneficial to properly reproducing a movie soundtrack.
Obviously I would rather have two very good channels of sound rather than 5 or more mediocre ones.
Scotty

[matthewpartrick]

Wow guys, thanks for all the responses!  It really gives me a good idea of varying opinions.

Yep. Merging an audiophile two channel system with a home theater system is incompatible. My HT and 2-channel systems share front speakers, but that's it. I even use separate speaker cables and switch them out when watching a movie.

This might be the best idea I've heard.  For me it's really not a big deal to manually switch cables from time to time.

Again, thanks so much.

[JLM]

Years ago Rotel offered a stereo A/V receiver (an odd duck for sure and really just a lackluster stereo receiver with extra input and combined channel subwoofer output).  I used it for years in a combined 2.1 system with a Sony 7700 DVD (which was also an excellent audio transport).  The key is finding speakers that offer great soundstaging to create a solid center image.  The concept was to concentrate resources into fewer/better components, and frankly never having been much of a movie fan it worked very well for me.  Now I have separate systems/rooms, with the man-cave housing the main (audio) system and the family room containing the HT system (made up of largely leftovers and minimally priced pieces).

If you're looking to upgrade your main speakers, perhaps the logical step up would be to look at Paradigm.  They offer several ranges of various models with a neutral presentation that suits both audio and HT.  They have a large dealer network for auditions/service and are well made.

[Johnny2Bad]

You need to put your efforts into building the "killer" 2-channel system you desire and can afford.

The HT system becomes an extension of that.

A pre-pro with additional amps, or a competant HT receiver, becomes the HT add-on.

You *always* run the L/R main speakers (stereo mode or HT mode). Regardless, they are run through your stereo preamp and power amp.

The center, L/R rears, and bass-managed sub are hooked up to the HT gear.

There are a number of ways to go about the hookups, depending somewhat on your chosen gear.

For example:
Quality disk player, such as any of the OPPO's, will have 2-ch outputs and multichannel outputs. Hook up the 2-ch audio-optimized channels as an input for your 2-ch system. Hook up the multichannel outputs to the HT front end. Many HT front ends have 2-ch pre-outs, more expensive ones have multichannel pre-outs. Doesn't matter, you select the L/R outs as an input to your stereo pre. (We've now eaten up 2 0f your stereo inputs).

Want to listen to a SACD? Pop the disk into the OPPO, play thru the stereo input 1, which is connected to the audio 2-ch outs of the OPPO..

Want to watch a movie? Pop the DVD (or Blu-ray) into the OPPO, run thru the HT receiver, but select input 2 on your 2-ch rig. You will have to get a handle on the volume setting on the 2-ch rig, but that will be second nature after a bit. All other channels plat thru the HT separates or receiver.

Some preamps have tape loops (in modern parlance, effects loops) that can run line-level inputs from a HT receiver to the 2-ch power amp.

The only caveat is the main 2-ch speakers must have sufficient bass to work in 2-ch mode without a sub, so that you can use a HT-type sub bass-managed.

There are lots of options, but Anthem makes some affordable HT receivers with pre-outs.