Electric water heater - kaput? What now???

jqp · « **on:** 13 Mar 2015, 08:24 pm »

Hi guys,

This is my Kenmore 40 gallon electric water heater. Brown residue now seeped into in a large patch of carpeting with padding. Luckily it sits on a cement slab floor, in the middle of my lower level of the house.

Noticed the carpet was wet a few days ago and thought it was some bottled water I had tipped over. Not sure for how long it had been leaking. Intelligent me had stacked a bunch of stuff in front of the door to the closet in the middle of a slab floor.

So I am thinking this is not a repair? who knows how deep the corrosion goes, right?

I have shut off the intake valve (you can see the edge of it) so I am thinking I can at least use the cold water while I am deciding.

This is a $300, 40 gallon electric Kenmore. I have been very happy with the performance, I ~~keep~~ kept it just at scalding temperature. It holds water hot enought to take a shower for 2 days, when the power goes out for multiple days (has not happened in my neighbothood for years now, thankfully).

Oh and it is 18+ years old!!!

To replace would be $300 + labor, delivery etc = $600-700?

Do I want a tankless electric water heater instead?

macrojack · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 08:36 pm »

Yes!!! I have an Aquastar in one of my rentals and it has been great. Gas would be cheaper to operate, perhaps, but the electric option would be far less expensive to install. Have an electrician do it for you.

MtnHam · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 08:38 pm »

Definitely not a repair! Replace!.

"Do I want a tankless electric water heater instead?"
Tankless electric water heaters are generally only for minimum flow installs, like serving a single sink. The Aquastar units appear to be gas only. Bosch does make 2 Powerstar whole house electric models, but they requires either 2 or 3 (depending on size) 40 amp(!) circuits @240v, an expensive install.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 08:50 pm »

There are larger tankless heaters but it depends on installation location (how far away from where you need the hot water, with tankless it shouldn't be too far... and how much capacity you need. If you have a smaller house, not a lot of folks using the water simultaneously and use and a central location for the heater a tankless is a good solution imo.

I'd also definitely go with a gas heater if your house has gas service already, I think using electricity for heat is kinda ridiculous... the energy started as heat at the power plant and is inefficiently converted to a much more useful form of energy, like for powering audio systems, and by converting the electricity back to heat you are losing about 2/3rds of the energy. This is why electric heat turns out to be expensive. IMO permanently installed heating devices that run on electricity should not even be sold.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 08:51 pm »

Here in NYC we have decent gas supply line and when ours went kaput, we swapped it for a larger 55 gallon gas heated unit. In some places in Long Island, I have heard from a friend that they must bring in oil for heating purposes, meaning that his water heater must run on electric while his furnace is oil. Such a primitive and expensive arrangement. Is gas or electric readily available where you live? That would be the main consideration for a water heater. I have heard of instant water heaters but those although compact seemed a little unproven in the US market.

MtnHam · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 08:59 pm »

Quote from: Bemopti123 on 13 Mar 2015, 08:51 pm

I have heard of instant water heaters but those although compact seemed a little unproven in the US market.

On demand gas hot water heaters are well proven and becoming very popular. They are ideal where hot water consumption is sporadic, as there is no wasted energy keeping a tank hot 24/7. They are also ideal where space is limited.

" think using electricity for heat is kinda ridiculous... "
I agree totally, particularly if natural gas is available.

In your case, replacing the failed unit with another of the same type will be your easiest and in the short term, the cheapest option.

jqp · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 09:02 pm »

Here in Charlotte it would cost me at least $2500 to get a gas water heater - $1300 at least for the water heater plus labor and I would have to install a vent also. Too much I think, would many years to break even.

A Kenmore 40 gallon electric is suprisingly efficient and very well insulated. The tank is cool to the touch because there is 2 inches of insulation inside the casing. Also I think it is a glass tank.

My house has 3 bathrooms on 3 levels.

Sounds like I would need multiple electric tankless units if I went that way.

jea48 · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 09:10 pm »

Quote from: jqp on 13 Mar 2015, 08:24 pm

Hi guys,

This is my Kenmore 40 gallon electric water heater. Brown residue now seeped into in a large patch of carpeting with padding. Luckily it sits on a cement slab floor, in the middle of my lower level of the house.

Noticed the carpet was wet a few days ago and thought it was some bottled water I had tipped over. Not sure for how long it had been leaking. Intelligent me had stacked a bunch of stuff in front of the door to the closet in the middle of a slab floor.

So I am thinking this is not a repair? who knows how deep the corrosion goes, right?

I have shut off the intake valve (you can see the edge of it) so I am thinking I can at least use the cold water while I am deciding.

This is a $300, 40 gallon electric Kenmore. I have been very happy with the performance, I ~~keep~~ kept it just at scalding temperature. It holds water hot enought to take a shower for 2 days, when the power goes out for multiple days (has not happened in my neighbothood for years now, thankfully).

Oh and it is 18+ years old!!!

To replace would be $300 + labor, delivery etc = $600-700?

Do I want a tankless electric water heater instead?

Your problem could have been caused by electrolysis from the plumbing pipe to water heater connections.
Make sure when you install the new heater good quality dielectric water line to hot water heater connectors are used.

http://www.plbg.com/forum/read.php?1,527275

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/water-heaters/172766-rust-water-heater-pipe-need-replace.html

jqp · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 09:52 pm »

Thanks, I was actually wondering about some weird annode cathode action looking at the pipes, since I see that kind of corrosion. In the original iPhone photo you can almost see crystals.

I had replaced the breaker for the hot water heater several years ago because it had white corrosion in it and was not conducting ( I thought my annode was dead and replaced it first by mistake). Could I have something seriously wrong with my wiring here? The previous ownder did a lot of half-assed DIY stuff courtesy of his friends, like no GFI circuit on the hot tub. Every year I seem to have to deal with something stupid that was done.

Off to shower at a friends house and get something to eat - will check back later.

gregfisk · « **Reply #9 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 10:03 pm »

Unless you have natural gas readily available and an easy way to vent it you are going to be much better off just replacing this tank with a new like kind tank.

I don't think on demand water heaters are an option unless you have gas.

IMO of course.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 10:05 pm »

I vote for the new tank. By the way, the "plumber" who did the soldering job on the incoming and outgoing water lines should be shot or they should go sell shoes for a living, you should never see evidence of solder joint leaks as appears in the image you posted.
You definitely got your moneys worth out of the old heater. After your plumber installs the new tank you should invest in a fiberglass blanket for the new heater, it should save you some money in the long run as utility rates will not go down in the future. These should be available at Home Despot or Lowes.
Scotty

GT Audio Works · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 10:09 pm »

I just replaced my electric water heater. I considered electric tankless. But up north our well water is too cold. Electric tankless would not give me the temp rise above ambient incoming water temp I need.
You are further south, measure your incoming water temp and follow the sizing charts to see how big a unit you need.
Be advised you will need a capable electrical service as these units require up to 3 hot electrical lines with breakers and may draw 60 to 100 amps when energized.
Greg

bladesmith · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 10:21 pm »

I just moved recently into a newer home and was researching the "on demand" water heaters. And for the install and price and don't forget the higher maintenance, it just wasn't enough savings to change over. The savings are minimal every month.

Don't get me wrong I would like to have one, just to add some extra space in that room, but, just not enough savings per month in the long run to warrant the higher price of the "on demand" unit/install/maintenance. The unit would have to run flawlessly for 12 to 15 years to get any better bang for the buck, compared to the classic gas water heater.

good luck..

DaveC113 · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 10:40 pm »

Quote from: jqp on 13 Mar 2015, 09:52 pm

I had replaced the breaker for the hot water heater several years ago because it had white corrosion in it and was not conducting ( I thought my annode was dead and replaced it first by mistake). Could I have something seriously wrong with my wiring here?

I didn't catch that the water lines are run directly into the tank, there should be a flexible line with electrical insulation to prevent that... there are issues with electrolysis that may have also effected your electrical lines. Besides the breaker the wire going from the breaker to the heater should probably be replaced too. Not exactly the same, but I have found battery acid corrosion on car electrical very far away from the battery (right next to the fuel pump on a Suburban) that caused the wiring to fail.

Atlplasma · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 11:09 pm »

You might consider a Rheem Marathon electric. I have 110 gallon model and it is great. Marathon's are a little expensive but very efficient. Plus, some utility companies offer rebates that help to bring down the price. Last, if you ever add solar panels, you'll be able to make hot water for free (or close to free).

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 11:12 pm »

Quote from: jqp on 13 Mar 2015, 09:02 pm

Here in Charlotte it would cost me at least $2500 to get a gas water heater - $1300 at least for the water heater plus labor and I would have to install a vent also. Too much I think, would many years to break even.

A Kenmore 40 gallon electric is suprisingly efficient and very well insulated. The tank is cool to the touch because there is 2 inches of insulation inside the casing. Also I think it is a glass tank.

My house has 3 bathrooms on 3 levels.

Sounds like I would need multiple electric tankless units if I went that way.

I cannot believe the price it cost to swap the water heater for a gas unit. I paid around $1150 about 3 years ago, the unit itself might cost around $550 and the rest was labor. Why does it cost $1300 just for the heater? Is it a huge capacity type? I am puzzled.

aldcoll · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 11:16 pm »

There is a Die electric union that can/need's to be installed on the lines. Since folks tie the electrical ground to a water line the water heater becomes a lab experiment.

Some City's have started out to out law using water lines for grounds so the water mains don't look like you hot water heater. Try working on the meter in the front yard when there is aground issue in the house

I have a neighbor that is a electrician for a neighbor and his hot water heater looks like a lab experiment.

And then there is my house where they have 18 inches of copper in the dirt and they use that for a ground. They also tie onto the re bar in the footing for a ground.

There isn't that much of a footing/stem wall.

jea48 · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 11:19 pm »

Electrolysis has nothing to do with whether the hot water heater is heated by electric or gas.

http://www.finishing.com/246/64.shtml

http://www.plainviewwater.org/Approved%20Copper%20Pinhole%20PR%20Response.pdf

Peter J · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 11:20 pm »

Bang for buck still goes to good ol' tank heaters. Gas fired demand WH are a better choice than electric ( they have HUGE power requirements), but all things considered they're usually a poor value when you pencil it out.

You could put three conventional water heaters in for what an adequate demand system would cost. Lots of hype from manufacturers and sellers makes them seem better than sliced bread, but you got great service from what you have...pencils out to something like $33 a year for equipment assuming $300 for heater and $300 for install. Energy costs on top of that, but that's there no matter what...eh?

You've got two types of corrosion going on there. Green stuff is from solder flux that didn't get cleaned off. Hairy white stuff is likely galvanic corrosion form not being electrically decoupled via flex connectors mentioned earlier. Plumber probably thought he was doing something good, but I've encountered some pretty dense plumbers. You've also got a dip tube anode inside the tank that's probably history, but doesn't matter at this point.

You may also want to consider an expansion tank if you don't have one. Some codes require them on new construction. Here's a rudimentary explanation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qufLEIh6LF0

Get a tank, a better install and call it good.

Bob2 · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Mar 2015, 11:29 pm »

The worst thing about R&R of a water heater is getting the old one out.
Install is pretty basic..
Get rid of it and install a new one. Probably an hour tops for un-hook/hook-up.

I have looked at on demand but hard to justify based on the initial cost and maintenance required.