[bladesmith]

I am looking at these Neo3's and can't find the difference between the two, anyone know ?

(Prices seem to be the same for Neo 3 PDRW and Neo 3W. )

Thanks,
Smith

[JohnR]

The PDR has material blocking the outer two rows of holes. I don't recall if the magnet structure is any different, but the effect is to broaden the dispersion at the cost of some sensitivity.

[bladesmith]

JohnR,

Thanks..

I have been thinking about a single Neo3pdr and a single Neo10, in a OB speaker set up.
 
I have a seperate set of woofer/subs that will go all the way up to 250hz. Then use my Neo10 up to my Neo3 tweeter.

Trying to find the best crossover freq. For the Neo's right now. I was thinking about crossing them over at 3000 or 4000hz, with a 24, 18, 12, or a 6 db slop. (?)

[Ric Schultz]

12db per octave is all you need.  Just invert the polarity of the tweeter.  Use world class parts......I use 12 gauge Jantzen wax paper foil coil on midrange and 16 gauge on tweeter.  I use Rike cap on midrange bypassed with .022 Jupiter copper foil and on tweet use Sonicap (with WA Qauntum Dot on it) with .022 Jupiter again and also a .15 modified Wima metalized polyprop.  All caps marked for outside foil and outside foil to output or ground.  Also, coils sound best if you go into the inside and out of the outside of the foil coils.  Keep the xover away from the back of the drivers and isolate on stand.  Use serious wire.......you will be in heaven!

[Davey]

JohnR,

Thanks..

I have been thinking about a single Neo3pdr and a single Neo10, in a OB speaker set up.
 
I have a seperate set of woofer/subs that will go all the way up to 250hz. Then use my Neo10 up to my Neo3 tweeter.

Trying to find the best crossover freq. For the Neo's right now. I was thinking about crossing them over at 3000 or 4000hz, with a 24, 18, 12, or a 6 db slop. (?)

Not sure if you're considering removing the back chamber, but if you do the Neo3 transducer becomes way underdamped and the response will peak noticeably at the lower end of its range.  They're not usable in that configuration without attention and EQ in your crossover.  Removing the back also increases distortion quite a bit.  Your suggested crossover frequency of 3-4khz is probably okay, but I wouldn't go any lower than that with a nominal slope xover and expect them to play loud.

These drivers have multiple issues compared to conventional dome tweeters, (which are generally superior drivers) but used within their limits, the Neo tweeters should provide a good result.

Cheers,

Dave.

[Ric Schultz]

I am using the Neo 3PDR open back with no eq and no compensation....it does not need it.  12 db per octave at 3K is plus and minus 2 db all the way.  Totally usable and sounds fantastic.  My baffle is 2.25 inches thick (3 pieces of highly refined MDF with green glue in between each layer) and a foot wide.  As you can see



the whole front surface of the baffle is felted and the felt extends slightly over the face of the tweet and mid.  There is felt around the back of the mid and tweet as well.  Fantastic combo!

I have several constrained layer damping strips horizontal on the Neo 10 and one vertical strip on the Neo 3.  The damping strips on the Neo 10 are then covered with electrical tape so the outside aluminum layer does not radiate as much sound.

My friend has a pair of the 700hz Hawthorne Audio waveguided AMTs and at some point he will loan them to me (he has yet to try them) and I will try one or two neo 10s crossed over at 700hz or less using a line level xover (totally tweak using fet buffers) I am designing at 24 db per octave.....now that could be fun!  Oops, not a planar....please forgive me....he he.

I have not heard any Beryllium tweeters but the Neo 3 is superior to my modified Vifa tweeter which sounded the same as an Esotar tweeter.

[bladesmith]

Ric,

that is the same set up I am leaning towards. I understand that a 12" wide baffle works well.

Do you think that two layers of MDF is sufficient, or is it better to have three ?

I can't tell by the pic, but are all of your drivers flush with the "front" of the baffle ?

(the pic shows up very dark on my android screen, can not see much detail, my android screen is poor.)

thanks.....

[Davey]

I am using the Neo 3PDR open back with no eq and no compensation....it does not need it.  12 db per octave at 3K is plus and minus 2 db all the way.  Totally usable and sounds fantastic.  My baffle is 2.25 inches thick (3 pieces of highly refined MDF with green glue in between each layer) and a foot wide.  As you can see

Put your microphone a few inches from the diaphragm of the Neo tweeter and measure open back and with the back on.  The response anomaly will be obvious.  If you can't measure that, then you need some help with your measurement procedures. 

By the way, I'm not the only one who's measured this under-damped high-distortion peak.  Google and you'll find a number of qualified DIY enthusiasts who have evaluated and found the same thing.

Dave.

[Trismos]

12db per octave is all you need.  Just invert the polarity of the tweeter.  Use world class parts......I use 12 gauge Jantzen wax paper foil coil on midrange and 16 gauge on tweeter.  I use Rike cap on midrange bypassed with .022 Jupiter copper foil and on tweet use Sonicap (with WA Qauntum Dot on it) with .022 Jupiter again and also a .15 modified Wima metalized polyprop.  All caps marked for outside foil and outside foil to output or ground.  Also, coils sound best if you go into the inside and out of the outside of the foil coils.  Keep the xover away from the back of the drivers and isolate on stand.  Use serious wire.......you will be in heaven!

I googled before I asked ... but what is a WA Quantum Dot?

Regards
Dave

[bladesmith]

Put your microphone a few inches from the diaphragm of the Neo tweeter and measure open back and with the back on.  The response anomaly will be obvious.  If you can't measure that, then you need some help with your measurement procedures. 

By the way, I'm not the only one who's measured this under-damped high-distortion peak.  Google and you'll find a number of qualified DIY enthusiasts who have evaluated and found the same thing.

Dave.

Dave,

Are you referring to the distortion at high freq.'s, say above 20K ?

(I have seen those threads. I am really not worried about that distortion at those freq.'s.)

[Davey]

Dave,

Are you referring to the distortion at high freq.'s, say above 20K ?

(I have seen those threads. I am really not worried about that distortion at those freq.'s.)

No, non-linear distortion lower in frequency in the audible range.
This tweeter is a darn good performer distortion-wise......but only with the back on. 
The motor structure was optimized to work with the rear chamber in place.

If you're bound and determined, go for it, but just be aware.  And don't say I didn't tell you. 

Dave.

[bladesmith]

No, non-linear distortion lower in frequency in the audible range.
This tweeter is a darn good performer distortion-wise......but only with the back on. 
The motor structure was optimized to work with the rear chamber in place.

If you're bound and determined, go for it, but just be aware.  And don't say I didn't tell you. 

Dave.

I have read and read about the NEO 3 and have found people having more good experiences with it than bad. Almost all of the bad experiences are in DIY projects. Usually first time project builders. Very few in mid/high value speaker companies using the same driver. So maybe application and speaker cabinet/baffle design has more to do with the overall performance of the Neo 3. (?)

[Ric Schultz]

WA Quantum chip (I call em dots) is a.......I don't know....they just work.  Imported by the Cable Co.  Google again....you will find reviews.  As I said...they work (at least the ones for caps and semi-conductors).

Let's face it, the Neo drivers are ugly.  This plays a lot in how manufacturers view things.  Imagine Wilson Audio with Neo 10 mids instead of the round thangs....never happen....no matter what the sound.  Check out the $40,000 new speaker from Genesis: http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/g4.html that uses a Neo 8 for its upper midrange....has to be one of the ugliest things I have ever seen.  Please put a grill on that thing and the clear base? and the scroll on the side?  Yikes! 

Danny Richie uses the Neos and his speakers are praised.  His new Wedgie speaker crosses over the Neo three (open back/open baffle) using 12 db per octave around 3K and measures great and the feedback so far is fantastic (plays loud, no strain)....check out the thread on his forum.

Yes, the drivers are inset (flush with panel).  This does not matter as long as you felt.  I like the "idea" thick dead baffles, so I start with 3 layers.  Very, very few have played with baffle types that have any useful information.  I would think that a baffle would be best if it is dead and multi-resonant.  Like bamboo for the front layer, then highly refined MDF for the middle layer and birch plywood for the back layer.  This way all three layers have a different resonance.....and all three are already more dead than regular MDF.  The thicker baffle will slightly help the low frequency extension, as well.

[Davey]

I have read and read about the NEO 3 and have found people having more good experiences with it than bad. Almost all of the bad experiences are in DIY projects. Usually first time project builders. Very few in mid/high value speaker companies using the same driver. So maybe application and speaker cabinet/baffle design has more to do with the overall performance of the Neo 3. (?)

I'll post up my measurements if you're interested.  If not, that's cool.
I didn't say you can't get a good experience (result) with these drivers.......just that you have to be aware of the change in performance when removing the backs.  This is not an inconsequential change to the transducer configuration.
Obviously cabinet/baffle design is an important parameter in your (larger) overall system, but I'm referring here to the objective performance of just the driver itself

Cheers,

Dave.

[bladesmith]

I'll post up my measurements if you're interested.  If not, that's cool.
I didn't say you can't get a good experience (result) with these drivers.......just that you have to be aware of the change in performance when removing the backs.  This is not an inconsequential change to the transducer configuration.
Obviously cabinet/baffle design is an important parameter in your (larger) overall system, but I'm referring here to the objective performance of just the driver itself

Cheers,

Dave.

Dave,

I would be interested in any information or experience you might have with the Neo 3's, 8's, 10's or even the Bohlender Graebener RD50 Planar in a two way configuration.

Thanks..

[Davey]

Are you familiar with the Adire DDR design?
If not, you might take a look since it's fairly well done (for what it is) and the crossover is designed for the Neo 3 with the back removed.  They sort of solved that problem by using a very steep electrical high-pass, and they also employed a notch filter up at around 13khz. 
The problem with that design is they sacrificed a tremendous amount of system efficiency to create a passive-only scheme for the OB configuration.  It could have been much better/cheaper done with an active crossover and a multi-amp system.

Anyways, I don't have any first-hand experience with the 10's or the RD drivers, but I do with the Neo 3's and 8's.  I'll post some of the appropriate plots demonstrating the underdamped response when I find them on my testing computer.

Cheers,

Dave.

[bladesmith]

Are you familiar with the Adire DDR design?
If not, you might take a look since it's fairly well done (for what it is) and the crossover is designed for the Neo 3 with the back removed.  They sort of solved that problem by using a very steep electrical high-pass, and they also employed a notch filter up at around 13khz. 
The problem with that design is they sacrificed a tremendous amount of system efficiency to create a passive-only scheme for the OB configuration.  It could have been much better/cheaper done with an active crossover and a multi-amp system.

Anyways, I don't have any first-hand experience with the 10's or the RD drivers, but I do with the Neo 3's and 8's.  I'll post some of the appropriate plots demonstrating the underdamped response when I find them on my testing computer.

Cheers,

Dave.

Dave,

The Adire ddr design is rated at 80 bd efficiency.   
And it's crossed over at 1.9k. The Neo 3 specs only go down to 2000. 
I have never heard one of those Adire DDR speaker designs. I downloaded the pdf, it is interesting. They say it works well. Who would of thought. The Adire design is cheaper in some ways, more expensive in others. Like the parts needed for the passive xover/notch filter. (Like you mentioned.)

I would think it would be better to use a Neo 10 with  Neo 3. Cross over at 3k. Yes,  a notch filter would be wise, on both
But, that would have to be worked out after installing in a baffle, 12"×48". Then check your FR and notch as required.
You would need quality parts for the passive crossover/notch filter. And could be costly. Still would be costly, but it would reach down to 250hz.
(Both drivers would work less, should be better all the way down to 250hz. In theory. .)

You are saying,  "use an active crossover". Would be easier, more cost effective. What brand ?

(Or just buy a RD 50 and use an "active" high pass filter and an "active" notch filter. 
Two way system, "RD50/woofer.?)

Smith...

(I should change my name to "Dazed and Confused".)

[Ric Schultz]

Read the thread and look at the measurements of Danny's Wedgie.....please.  Flat frequency response and fantastic sound.  Look at my speaker and it measures just as well....just 12 db per octave and no other parts in both designs....his has wings and mine is large thick baffle.  If you measure a Neo 3 in air or on a small baffle then you have a problem.  By felting or winging (Danny had to have partial wing on one side or the Neo 3 mis-behaved)....please...please read his thread. 

[SteveFord]

Ric,
Why don't you post a link to that thread you're talking about?

[prokennex]

I believe the thread is called "Something new that sounds incredible"

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=126112.msg1380855#new