Is my amb sufficient to drive my new (used) pair of HT2-TL?

Peterkjl · « **on:** 9 Nov 2014, 03:28 pm »

I have an integrated amb: NAD 356 BEE (2 x 80W, powerdrive technology) which is only a year old and I must admit that I´m a newbie)
My problem is that when I play music at low volume the music kind of stays in the speakers (HT2-TL). The music is fantastic at high volume though.
Will the addition of an poweramp solve the problem (more wats can maybe drive them better even at low volume), or is it just the nature of these speakers?

Is it better tho change to another more powerfull integrated amp? Unfortunately we don't have AVA retailer in Denmark.

How big is the gain if you choose to buy seperate preamp and poweramp?

I´m exited to hear your suggestions and thanks for a fantastic forum!

ricardojoa · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 01:46 am »

It might have to do with your room, as you play louder, your rom effects gets amplify as well, so you hear more of the room than the speaker.

Saturn94 · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 02:51 am »

When I had HT2-TLs I noticed they opened up a bit when played louder. I don't think a more powerful amp is the answer here.

Btw, the amp I used, a Parasound 5250, is rated 250wpc at 8 ohm.

NIGHTFALL1970 · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 10:57 am »

Frank has a nice integrated here:

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=125&Itemid=176

RDavidson · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 03:23 pm »

I seriously doubt the issue has anything to do with your amp. In my experience, some speakers just don't open up unless you open up the volume control a bit, as you have found. I don't know exactly what this is attributed to, but I think it has to do with the driver design and mechanical stiffness. In my experience, Dynaudios can be this way. I'm not Dynaudio bashing. In fact I think their speakers are very well made and engineered, but they don't let go of the music unless you play them a little louder.....a bit too loud for my listening habits / listening distance.

You might try breaking them in more. Place them face to face with maybe just 4 inches of space between them and wire one speaker out of phase. If you can, send a mono signal to the speakers, so they're both playing the exact same signal. You should be able to turn the volume up a quite a few ticks higher than normal and not hear much more than bass sounds coming from the backs of them. You can also cover them with a blanket or something to keep their back waves from radiating too loudly and also gently plug the ports with socks (clean ones

). Play dynamic music with good bass. This should loosen up the drivers' rubber surrounds a bit and may also help break in some of the crossover components a bit also. This is pretty standard break-in procedure, especially if you are away at work during the day. I'd do this for maybe 2-3 days, assuming they've already broken in a little bit by the previous owner and you.

Turk · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 03:52 pm »

Welcome! To clarify, are you hearing a lack of a center fill; soundstage at low levels?

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 04:32 pm »

Quote from: RDavidson on 10 Nov 2014, 03:23 pm

I seriously doubt the issue has anything to do with your amp.

I think it has almost everything to do with the amplifier. It is a rare occasion that a big amplifier and inefficient speaker will ever sound good at low volume levels. Now you know why some of us use a low wattage, pure class A single ended amplifier with a more efficient speaker. We get the same great sound at all volume levels.

Vulcan00 · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 04:44 pm »

I have no experience with NAD equipment, but I do with driving HT2TL's. While most any good amp or even receiver can drive them. If you wish full bandwidth with excellent dynamics at low voltage you need a Preamp capable of delivering.

jsalk · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 04:45 pm »

There is one other possible factor involved here. Back in the '30's at Bell Labs, Fletcher and Munson (google Fletcher/Munson Curve) demonstrated that at low volumes, human hearing is less sensitive to bass and high treble frequencies. That is why, in the 70's, many amp manufacturers added a "loudness contour" control (which you don't see very often these days) to their products. Basically, this circuit EQ'd the signal to boost the appropriate frequencies when listening at low volumes.

Obviously, a speaker cannot compensate for this phenomenon as the FR would no longer be flat.

I have no idea how much this phenomenon impacts the OP's original question. But it may play at least a minor role.

- Jim

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 04:47 pm »

You need to energize that speaker and get it moving as mentioned. Idling along with low watts is not going to cut it. Kick it in its butt and make it sing. Doesn't have to be 90 db, but if you are like most of us in the 75 to 85 db range, then having some more power means you can handle the transients inherent in most music.

RDavidson · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 04:55 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 10 Nov 2014, 04:32 pm

I think it has almost everything to do with the amplifier. It is a rare occasion that a big amplifier and inefficient speaker will ever sound good at low volume levels. Now you know why some of us use a low wattage, pure class A single ended amplifier with a more efficient speaker. We get the same great sound at all volume levels.

I fully understand. I run pure class A single ended with single driver crossover-less speakers in one of my setups. His amp isn't insufficient for those speakers and the speakers aren't really inefficient. Again, when I had Dynaudios I ran into (what seems to be) the same issue I believe the OP is describing, and I doubt anyone would say I didn't have enough power for the Dyns with both the McCormack and a couple of Belles amps I tried with them. It just didn't matter. I had to turn the volume up a little bit more than I'd like, in order to apparently free the drivers from their own dampening (over dampening) characteristics. This COULD be at least partly the same issue. Of course, if he was trying to run a low powered SET with his speakers, then that'd obviously be the first place to look. But he's not running an SET. He has a NAD with good power and current. It's an issue of volume level, not likely one of power.

RDavidson · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 05:01 pm »

Quote from: Big Red Machine on 10 Nov 2014, 04:47 pm

You need to energize that speaker and get it moving as mentioned. Idling along with low watts is not going to cut it. Kick it in its butt and make it sing. Doesn't have to be 90 db, but if you are like most of us in the 75 to 85 db range, then having some more power means you can handle the transients inherent in most music.

+1 He's likely idling along at less than 10 watts 90% of the time. He needs to bump up the idle and feed the speakers more of the power he has on tap. He doesn't have a ton, but it's likely quite sufficient, unless he wants rock concert levels.

WGH · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 05:27 pm »

NAD put tone controls on the 356 BEE for exactly the problem you are experiencing, it would be a shame not to use them. Then again that will only get you so far, my old, old NAD had a pretty good amp but the pre-amp section was only so-so. Try to borrow a stand alone pre-amp to try out, plugging it into the Main-In jacks, any pre will do because you will find out if it sounds better or worse and give you a direction to head toward on your journey.

hogzilla · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 06:00 pm »

I have noticed a similar situation. This is at very low volumes though and happens no matter what speakers I plug in. However, I attribute this to what Jim has suggested. Once I get just a little past that "low volume" it is just fine and has all the dynamic you'd expect. Adjusting loudness or tone controls will get you past the hump. So, getting more to the point, "crank it up, man!"

JonnyFive · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 07:00 pm »

Quote from: jsalk on 10 Nov 2014, 04:45 pm

There is one other possible factor involved here. Back in the '30's at Bell Labs, Fletcher and Munson (google Fletcher/Munson Curve) demonstrated that at low volumes, human hearing is less sensitive to bass and high treble frequencies. That is why, in the 70's, many amp manufacturers added a "loudness contour" control (which you don't see very often these days) to their products. Basically, this circuit EQ'd the signal to boost the appropriate frequencies when listening at low volumes.

This is why I was still using the Marantz AV8801 on the Soundscape 8s. I couldn't find a high end preamp that had this feature. Without "Dynamic EQ" in the Marantz, I don't even want to listen at all. I demo'd some relatively high end equipment at an audio shop, my thought was always "where's the bass?" "Are the woofers even moving?"

Since I listen well under reference level, some version of a "loudness" button is a must have for me. I just wish Classe or some other high end preamp offered this feature. I believe a Dolby variant is offered in the Anthem pre-pros, if they release a new series of pre-pros with Arc V2 I'll probably give it a try.

Peterkjl · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 08:20 pm »

Thank you everyone for the amazing feedback. Actually increasing the bass and treble tone controls helps to a certain point. I will first try to add a preamb to see if I can rule the power problem out.

I will follow the discussion onward with excitement and give feedback when I have tried the preamb.

Great forum!

Tomy2Tone · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Nov 2014, 08:46 pm »

I've recently picked up a DSPeaker Antimode 2.0 and use it as my preamp and loving the results. It has tons of feature but once I did a room sweep calibration I just adjusted the tone controls to my liking. It also has a loudness/bass compensation adjustment you can do on the fly so it makes for a very user friendly piece.

I run standard Songtowers and before the DSPeaker I had to have dual subs in the mix. Now, I'm content running them 2.0. Never thought I would say that but it's true.

If you do entertain the DSPeaker I reccomend a really good power supply. AUM Acoustics makes an excellent one!

Saturn94 · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Nov 2014, 12:04 am »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 10 Nov 2014, 04:32 pm

I think it has almost everything to do with the amplifier. It is a rare occasion that a big amplifier and inefficient speaker will ever sound good at low volume levels.....

This hasn't been my experience. My prior speakers, ADS L1290/2 (a little more efficient than the HT2-TL) and speakers I bought after the HT2-TLs, Soundfield Audio Monitor 1 (about the same efficiency as the HT2-TL) sound great at all volume levels (amps used have been Hafler DH200 and Parasound Classic 5250).

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Nov 2014, 08:38 pm »

I understand what you're saying and I believe that your experience is true for you. Myself, I have owned several power amplifiers that were rated 60 watts and up, tube and transistor. The one thing that they all had in common (to me) was boring, lifeless sound at low volume levels. It didn't really matter what kind of speaker I was using either. It wasn't until I bought a little 30 watt tube amplifier (Cary SLA-70A) that I realized the amplifier has more to do with good sound at low volume levels than the speaker. A 75-78dB peak measured on a Radio Shack SPL meter is what I call "low volume". Ever since then I have found that a simpler, lower powered amp is the best way to go for normal volume listening up to peak levels of 90-93dB, which is plenty loud for me. There are always exceptions of course, but that always involves more money. Budget is rarely brought up in these kind of debates.

Maybe Salk speakers are sufficiently different from all other speakers and they only sound good when they are played at medium to loud levels. I can't imagine that is true, but I certainly defer to those of you who actually own them. I have been wrong before.

I liked the preamp suggestion though. The NAD integrated is a nice value-oriented product and it might give up some of the goods with a better preamp plugged into the "amplifier in" jacks. I hope the preamp helps.

RDavidson · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Nov 2014, 09:52 pm »

Quiet Earth, I agree with what you're saying, and I'm not suggesting that my experience is more correct than yours. The fact of the matter is, there is probably more than one factor at play. Something also to consider when you went to the 30 watt tube amp is that it likely put out more current than the SS amps you tried before. There's just such a mix of info and things going on between gear and ears to make any kind of blanket statement about the OP's issue, but I think we've collectively given the OP some things to look into.
Perhaps it was my fault for saying "I seriously doubt the amp is at fault" which lead you to come back with some strong opinions of your own. It's cool.