[Quiet Earth]

Something also to consider when you went to the 30 watt tube amp is that it likely put out more current than the SS amps you tried before.

Actually, the 30 watt EL34 amp  always sounded better than the bigger amps I bought to replace it. It was better than a 60 watt EL34 amp and way better than a 120 watt KT88 amp. (And it also sounded better than a older 100 watt hybrid tube/ mosfet amp.) When I say "better", that is in the context of low to normal volume listening, which is the subject of this thread. When pushed really hard the bigger amps could of course play much  louder. Louder was fun for a while, but it got old after a while. Wait a minute....... maybe I got old? Yep, I guess I did. 

I'm trying really hard not to derail the thread. It isn't really that complicated. When you are playing music at typical home listening levels (80 to 90 dB peaks?), you just don't need that much power. Power in reserve or "available power on tap" is power that you may never use. If that is the case then your amplifier has "more circuit complexity", not more available power. A simpler amplifier that operates within its usable power range has inherent advantages over a more complicated amp that may never be used to its full potential. I know that sounds overly simplistic but I find it to be true every time.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

[Saturn94]

I understand what you're saying and I believe that your experience is true for you. Myself, I have owned several power amplifiers that were rated 60 watts and up, tube and transistor. The one thing that they all had in common (to me) was boring, lifeless sound at low volume levels. It didn't really matter what kind of speaker I was using either. It wasn't until I bought a little 30 watt tube amplifier (Cary SLA-70A) that I realized the amplifier has more to do with good sound at low volume levels than the speaker. A 75-78dB peak measured on a Radio Shack SPL meter is what I call "low volume". Ever since then I have found that a simpler, lower powered amp is the best way to go for normal volume listening up to peak levels of 90-93dB, which is plenty loud for me. There are always exceptions of course, but that always involves more money. Budget is rarely brought up in these kind of debates.

Maybe Salk speakers are sufficiently different from all other speakers and they only sound good when they are played at medium to loud levels. I can't imagine that is true, but I certainly defer to those of you who actually own them. I have been wrong before.

I liked the preamp suggestion though. The NAD integrated is a nice value-oriented product and it might give up some of the goods with a better preamp plugged into the "amplifier in" jacks. I hope the preamp helps.

Different personal experiences and opinions....fair enough.

Btw, for clarity, I didn't mean to suggest that my HT2-TLs didn't sound good at lower volumes, but they did "open up" with a bit more volume/power applied.

I hope the OP follows up with how he addresses this issue.

[RDavidson]

Actually, the 30 watt EL34 amp  always sounded better than the bigger amps I bought to replace it. It was better than a 60 watt EL34 amp and way better than a 120 watt KT88 amp. (And it also sounded better than a older 100 watt hybrid tube/ mosfet amp.) When I say "better", that is in the context of low to normal volume listening, which is the subject of this thread. When pushed really hard the bigger amps could of course play much  louder. Louder was fun for a while, but it got old after a while. Wait a minute....... maybe I got old? Yep, I guess I did. 

I'm trying really hard not to derail the thread. It isn't really that complicated. When you are playing music at typical home listening levels (80 to 90 dB peaks?), you just don't need that much power. Power in reserve or "available power on tap" is power that you may never use. If that is the case then your amplifier has "more circuit complexity", not more available power. A simpler amplifier that operates within its usable power range has inherent advantages over a more complicated amp that may never be used to its full potential. I know that sounds overly simplistic but I find it to be true every time.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

I agree. I also find that amps have a "sweet spot" and it is MUCH easier to run lower powered amps in their sweet spot 80%-90% of the time, given comfortable listening levels, with appropriate speakers, etc etc. The sweet spot varies, of course, with every amp and speaker pairing.
I may have misunderstood you earlier. You weren't arguing that his NAD wasn't sufficient in terms of grunt. You were arguing that he just likely isn't running it in it's "sweet spot" hence the reason to have to turn the volume up a bit, to push the amp into its sweet spot or at least closer to it.

[Quiet Earth]

Yes. That was what I was trying to say the first time. You said it much better than I did.

Also, I agree with Jim about the Fletcher and Munson curve. There is a point where you may be listening too quietly, say in the 60 to 70 dB peak range and your ear just doesn't respond the same way as it does between 75 and 85 dB peaks.

One last thing that hasn't been mentioned is that many recordings are mastered somewhere around 85 dB listening peaks. Believe it or not, that's where they will sound their best or fullest in your room. You don't have to listen that loud all the time, but the closer you get, the better your chances.

So I think all of these things matter.

[Peterkjl]

Oh dear, they where hungry. I Connected my NAD 356 to a power amp (NAD 275) and heaven was unleased! Amazing difference especially at low volume where the music now fills the room completely and you don't feel the need for cranking the volume up. On top of this the sound at higher volume is also clearly improved. In general much more present, detailed, fullfilling music. When listening to ex. a violin or guitare you can feel the material of the string.

Congratz Jim, you surely did create a masterpiece of a speaker. I'm happy.

Thank you again for all your great input. For me it was a big lesson on how power is very important, especially for some speakers.

[Quiet Earth]

Wow. They must be a really difficult load. I stand corrected.

I'm glad that it worked out for you. Good job.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

In my experience some amps and preamps are more dynamic at lower volumes than others.  The AVA FET amps and its matching preamp have very good dynamics and musicality at low volumes.  Pass Labs gear does as well.  I have a Pass X250 amp and had its matching X-1 preamp and it sounded great at low volumes with my Magnepans.  I eventually sold the preamp and bought a BAT preamp.  The BAT sounds much better than the Pass at medium to loud volumes but it is not as good as the Pass X1 at lower volumes.  Fortunately for me, I listen at a medium volume level.

[fsimms]

I had a proton amp a few years back with my Salk HT1s.  It is from the same factory that NAD uses.  It seemed to compress the sound.  That makes low level sounds louder which helped low level listening.  It also made music sound fuller.  The only problem is that it reduces dynamic range compared to most other quality amps.

Bob

[undertow]

Hmm... I guess the point was missed here, but in fact what will drive the lower "Volume" on a volume control is gain.

Simply put the reason that inserting a bigger power amp for the OP was not due to it putting out maybe 3 db more on the outputs, but it probably added another 6 to 10 db "Signal Gain".

In otherwords too many people seem to think a power hungry speaker needs to go from 50 watts a channel to 250 watts a channel, when in fact most of the time using a higher input gain on the amp is what changes that volume control "Position" making it seem more powerful at lower levels.

Trust me when I say this is the case on both efficient and inefficient speakers.

From my own experience and formulated opinion most standard speakers range from about 88 to 92 db "Sensitivity".

You will see many of these same manufacturers claim a 20 watt S.E.T. amp up to 200 watt Solid state is good enough. While this may be true fact is a 30 db gain S.E.T. amp will sound more powerful even at lower volume settings than a 150 watt SS amp with just 22 db of gain.

Truth is in the Gain Chain...

My own testing has shown that if you have a standard 88 db to 92 db capable speaker that your needed gain between both the Preamp and Amp should be about 35 to 45 db. In otherwords an amp with about 25 db of gain + Preamp of lets say 14 db = 39 db is pretty much going to give you that good volume "Spread" where hitting about 12 O'clock on the dial feels good.

But if your running lets say a very high gain SS amp with 28 or 30 db, and a very High preamp which many put out 20 db, your pushing all the power up front and some people feel limited and in fact many times won't push that volume past about 9 or 10 oclock, and the signal starts to sound overdriven.

For high efficiency speakers I have found about 30 db gain across the board is good. 96 db to 110 db speakers work well with lowish gain amps around 20 to 22 db, and lowish preamps capable of being tuned down to 6 or 8 db.

Or you just go with a high gain amp 29 db - 30 db, and drop in a Passive preamp!

[RDavidson]

Hmm... I guess the point was missed here, but in fact what will drive the lower "Volume" on a volume control is gain.

Simply put the reason that inserting a bigger power amp for the OP was not due to it putting out maybe 3 db more on the outputs, but it probably added another 6 to 10 db "Signal Gain".

In otherwords too many people seem to think a power hungry speaker needs to go from 50 watts a channel to 250 watts a channel, when in fact most of the time using a higher input gain on the amp is what changes that volume control "Position" making it seem more powerful at lower levels.

Trust me when I say this is the case on both efficient and inefficient speakers.

From my own experience and formulated opinion most standard speakers range from about 88 to 92 db "Sensitivity".

You will see many of these same manufacturers claim a 20 watt S.E.T. amp up to 200 watt Solid state is good enough. While this may be true fact is a 30 db gain S.E.T. amp will sound more powerful even at lower volume settings than a 150 watt SS amp with just 22 db of gain.

Truth is in the Gain Chain...

My own testing has shown that if you have a standard 88 db to 92 db capable speaker that your needed gain between both the Preamp and Amp should be about 35 to 45 db. In otherwords an amp with about 25 db of gain + Preamp of lets say 14 db = 39 db is pretty much going to give you that good volume "Spread" where hitting about 12 O'clock on the dial feels good.

But if your running lets say a very high gain SS amp with 28 or 30 db, and a very High preamp which many put out 20 db, your pushing all the power up front and some people feel limited and in fact many times won't push that volume past about 9 or 10 oclock, and the signal starts to sound overdriven.

For high efficiency speakers I have found about 30 db gain across the board is good. 96 db to 110 db speakers work well with lowish gain amps around 20 to 22 db, and lowish preamps capable of being tuned down to 6 or 8 db.

Or you just go with a high gain amp 29 db - 30 db, and drop in a Passive preamp!

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but you're missing a major point. Signal gain is a function of output voltage from the preamp. Input sensitivity (of the outboard amp) also plays a role in loudness levels in correlation to the volume knob position. If using an active preamp (as in the OP's case), source voltage is largely moot (unless it is insufficient, which is rarely the case these days).

[opnly bafld]

Differences/similarities between the two amps:

Power 80 watts ~main in sensitivity .950v ~ gain 29dB
Power 150 watts ~ input sensitivity 1.2v ~ gain 29dB



Glad you found something that works better for you Peter. 

[undertow]

Okay...

[RDavidson]

Differences/similarities between the two amps:

Power 80 watts ~main in sensitivity .950v ~ gain 29dB
Power 150 watts ~ input sensitivity 1.2v ~ gain 29dB

Want to try again undertow?


Glad you found something that works better for you Peter. 

Interesting that the main in sensitivity of the integrated is about 20% higher than the separate amp. This would suggest that one would need to increase the position on the volume knob a little bit, to have the same output level using the outboard amp. The obvious difference is that the OP has more dynamic headroom with the new amp, so I would surmise that the larger amp is more at ease powering the speakers, even at lower volumes.

[RDavidson]

Huh?

First I was not trying to say what was done did not work? Second all I was saying as for VOLUME KNOB and getting away from either having to turn up too much, or too little is normally a function of "Total" gain in the chain.

80 watts to 150 watts of OUTPUT is just over a 2 db difference and that is spread across the entire volume range.

Bottom line what I was saying is that in fact higher gain combination will give you higher detail and frequency response at lower volume "Settings"...

In fact the preamp being used could have higher output via the Pre-out jacks vs. the internal integrated amp that was used which likely has a lower total gain structure is all I was pointing out.

More power between 80 watts and 150 watts on a 90 db speaker would barely be of any significance at output volume especiallly lower on the volume scale. So again my point was likely GAIN went up a bit using another amp giving that lower volume level more boost off the bat.

I probably made my first statement sound a bit too complicated.

Sorry if I offended somebody.

No offense. Look at the specs. Gain is the same between the two amps. The lower powered internal amp in the NAD actually has 20% higher input sensitivity too. All this kind of flies in the face of what you were saying. Not doubting your experience, but your experience might not quite apply here.