Outlaw Partial Open Baffle

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DaveC113

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #80 on: 21 Aug 2014, 10:22 pm »
Hi beowulf, those came with my speakers many years ago so I'm not sure....

Stercom just sent me a bunch of different footers to try out on my components, but I would say for my speakers the isol8r stands have been MUCH better than the sort of products sold by audiopoints. However, for my setup I think having the speakers spiked to the stand may be a good way to go, but ONLY because the isol8r stand is right under them.

I'd ask Steve at Herbie's Audio Labs, this stuff is his specialty and based on the Herbie Talk thread in the GR circle I think we agree about isolation/decoupling being the right approach, which is the opposite of audiopoints.

Good Times

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #81 on: 22 Aug 2014, 04:24 am »
Hi Louis.
Thanks for the compliment.
By the way, it's " way too absurd " not way to absurd.
If you ant to insult me, do it properly. :lol:
In my past 5 years with AC you are the first and only one that did not liked my " absurd " jokes,
maybe it a question of culture ?
Now, that being said, you can now send to the Intergalactic waste bin my post,
if that makes you happy.

Guy 13
Humm mmm... After writing this, I feel relieved.

If you're going to correct spelling of another person, you'd better ensure your spelling and grammar is accurate.

"If you want to...."
"....not like my "absurd"...."

Also, capital letters to start a sentence, and no capital for "intergalactic".

Guy 13

Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #82 on: 22 Aug 2014, 06:46 am »
If you're going to correct spelling of another person, you'd better ensure your spelling and grammar is accurate.

"If you want to...."
"....not like my "absurd"...."

Also, capital letters to start a sentence, and no capital for "intergalactic".

Hi Good Times.
Thanks for your grammar lesson, as you probably know already,
I am a French Canadian, therefore English is my second language
that I have learned all by myself, and it shows... :lol:
I will accept any help from a genuine English speaking person.
If you are commenting my post, it's probably because you are
a VIP member of the Omega (Fan) club.
Well, good for you and bad for me.
Please feel free to correct me any time you want.
Thanks.

Guy 13
 

beowulf

Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #83 on: 22 Aug 2014, 07:41 am »
Hi beowulf, those came with my speakers many years ago so I'm not sure....

Stercom just sent me a bunch of different footers to try out on my components, but I would say for my speakers the isol8r stands have been MUCH better than the sort of products sold by audiopoints. However, for my setup I think having the speakers spiked to the stand may be a good way to go, but ONLY because the isol8r stand is right under them.

I'd ask Steve at Herbie's Audio Labs, this stuff is his specialty and based on the Herbie Talk thread in the GR circle I think we agree about isolation/decoupling being the right approach, which is the opposite of audiopoints.

Hi Dave, have you tried Audio Points specifically or read their research paper on Coulomb Friction? I found it an interesting read and find their theories seem more aligned with how a sound resonance dissipates itself naturally rather than trying to deaden/dampen which seems to me it would dull out some dynamics.  Although I've never tried either one, so I don't have an actual opinion on the better route to go.

I asked Steve in the GR Herbie's thread and he called a basic theory of physics (all energy seeks [earth's] ground via the fastest method it derives) malarkey :o.  I'm not sure if he thought it was a threatening question and it was certainly not my intention to bring it up in that matter, but I was hoping he could expound scientifically a little on why his method would be better, but lets just say I don't think he liked my question :green:.

At any rate now that I have some kick ass speaker and interconnect cables, I plan on experimenting with some sound resonance techniques (shortly after Christmas that is  :lol:)

DaveC113

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #84 on: 22 Aug 2014, 03:24 pm »
That "white paper" was copied and pasted from here:

http://fsinet.fsid.cvut.cz/en/u2052/node121.html

The conclusions they come to seem dubious at best. Stuff like what is quoted below makes me wonder if the author has a technical education at all. The issue being, the isolation device has damping qualities which reduce the magnitude of the vibration until it stops, or if the input is continuous there will be a degree of attenuation. An isolation device would have to allow movement of the device it is isolating with absolutely no friction in order to not reduce the magnitude of the vibration and serve as a "resonance capacitor". However, this is the exact opposite goal of people who design isolation devices. Isolation devices are designed to attenuate the magnitude of vibration, not preserve it!  The isolation device has mechanical properties that allow it to convert motion (vibration) into heat at a molecular level. This is where the vibration dissipates and it doesn't need to "seek earth's ground", which is a ridiculous concept.

This is demonstrated in one of Herbie's Audio Labs pages that show the effectiveness of the isolation material used at different frequencies, and the attenuation is significant, and ranges from approximately 16-50 dB from 20 Hz on up throughout the audible frequency spectrum. That's a lot of attenuation and in fact the exact opposite of a "resonance capacitor".

I do have a degree in mechanical engineering and I can say that while the math on that paper is accurate (only because it was copied and pasted), the conclusions are laughable. I'm sure Steve doesn't want to get into something where it could be said he has a bias and creates a conflict of interest, but I do not sell any isolation products at all, so I am more than happy to say that the entire premise behind that paper seems flawed to me.


"With regards to airborne resonance, isolation principles serve much like the dielectric material in a capacitance device, essentially turning the component into a giant Resonance Capacitor. "

kirch

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #85 on: 25 Aug 2014, 02:27 pm »

NOTE: SPEAKERS WERE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING BROKEN IN WHEN I WROTE THIS INITIAL IMPRESSION.

First of all, I haven't the slightest idea what any of that stuff means that Dave posted above, and I never will.  I just like to listen, and I know what I like when I hear it.  Which leads to some initial impressions of the Outlaws . . .

Active listening started Sunday after running the Outlaws for about 60-70 hours so they're close to being broken in.  On Dwights recommendation, I have them set up 6’ from rear wall and 4’ from the sides, so that puts them about 7.5 feet apart and I’m sitting about 8 feet out.  Swapped out amps and dacs, mixed and matched, made adjustments to the subwoofer crossover and output.  All in all put in about 4-5 hours of listening.

Here it is Monday morning and I thought I’d do a little listening before settling into work for the day.  The system today is Audio Note OTO integrated 10 wpc and the Benchmark solid state dac.  Cables are Analysis Plus throughout including power cables.  I forget which ones but they’re close to their top of the line.  Tunes are streamed through a squeezebox from my computer upstairs.  All audio is lossless FLAC ripped from CD.  With the family gone to work and school it was time for a little high volume music.  NOTE:  Loud to me is probably not as loud as it is for you, but it's loud enough that you can't have a conversation without raising your voice.

When I crank up the tunes, I like Porcupine Tree.  Steven Wilson is an amazing musician, and if this were 1975 his stuff would be all over the AOR airwaves.  (If you’re unfamiliar with him, think Pink Floyd, Rush, Yes.)  Sadly this isn’t, and he ain’t.  Solo, with Porcupine Tree or with others, I listen to his stuff often.  I find his songs engaging, and they’re very well recorded and engineered.  He’s guitar and synth heavy with a lot of textures and nuances throughout.  Some of his heavier stuff almost gives Metallica a run for their money.  Today, it’s The Sky Moves Sideways, Disc 1. 

First off, the Outlaw Open Backs go loud, so volume is not an issue.  Rated at 94 db +/- there is no problem with distortion free high volume clarity and presentation.  At no point did I feel the Outlaws were even close to straining.  The key for me is to get the sub settings to match well with the Outlaws.  Output is about 5.5 of 10 and the crossover is set at about 70 give or take.  For my ears and the current component configuration, this offers the right blend of lows and bass supplement to the midrange. 

Without mentioning specific tunes, my impressions are good.  Lots of space in the songs.  Wilson uses a ton synths, echoes, reverb and various treatments on his instruments that really add to my engagement when listening.  Soundstage from the Outlaws is deep and broad.  Imaging, detail and three dimensionality is almost on par with some of the better and more expensive speakers I’ve had the pleasure to own over the years (Audio Note ANJ-Spe and Von Schweikert VR 33).  Overall a very enjoyable listening experience.  Passages of these tunes seem to float around the room as the speakers get lost.  Other sections where Wilson really rocks on his guitar are also very well presented.

My only issue is that this style of speaker lends itself to being a bit on the lean or forward side - and I knew that going in - and I’m determined to find the right blend of position, component matching and sub crossover to get this under control.  The slightest bump in sub crossover and output makes a pleasant difference. Frankly I really enjoy tweaking and coaxing this system to get what I want out of it.  To me, that’s one of the great things about this hobby.   

So far, so good!  More to come.
« Last Edit: 5 Dec 2014, 09:00 pm by kirch »

kirch

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #86 on: 28 Aug 2014, 06:37 pm »
Quote
My only issue is that this style of speaker lends itself to being a bit on the lean or forward side - and I knew that going in - and I’m determined to find the right blend of position, component matching and sub crossover to get this under control.  The slightest bump in sub crossover and output makes a pleasant difference.

Had an "ah ha" moment yesterday.  It occurred to me that I had read something about solid core vs. stranded speaker wire and their specific characteristics.  I've been using Anti-cables for years on "regular" speakers, and was using them with the Outlaws.  Big mistake. :duh: 

Switched to 12 gauge stranded.  Wow.  Very, very big difference.  Now THIS is more like it!  These sound like a different pair of speakers.  Really opens up and smooths out the midrange.  Leanness is gone, forwardness, gone.  Not a hint of fatigue. 

I knew there was some reason these weren't sounding as expected! 

happyrabbit

Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #87 on: 30 Aug 2014, 03:05 pm »
Excellent update kirch  :banana piano: 

Canada Rob

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #88 on: 1 Sep 2014, 09:19 pm »
Had an "ah ha" moment yesterday.  It occurred to me that I had read something about solid core vs. stranded speaker wire and their specific characteristics.  I've been using Anti-cables for years on "regular" speakers, and was using them with the Outlaws.  Big mistake. :duh: 

Switched to 12 gauge stranded.  Wow.  Very, very big difference.  Now THIS is more like it!  These sound like a different pair of speakers.  Really opens up and smooths out the midrange.  Leanness is gone, forwardness, gone.  Not a hint of fatigue. 

I knew there was some reason these weren't sounding as expected!
Hi kirch,
Lower speaker stands would improve things even further.  Also, as the speakers get closer to the floor your bass will increase, fleshing everything out.

DaveC113

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #89 on: 1 Sep 2014, 10:21 pm »
Had an "ah ha" moment yesterday.  It occurred to me that I had read something about solid core vs. stranded speaker wire and their specific characteristics.  I've been using Anti-cables for years on "regular" speakers, and was using them with the Outlaws.  Big mistake. :duh: 

Switched to 12 gauge stranded.  Wow.  Very, very big difference.  Now THIS is more like it!  These sound like a different pair of speakers.  Really opens up and smooths out the midrange.  Leanness is gone, forwardness, gone.  Not a hint of fatigue. 

I knew there was some reason these weren't sounding as expected!

Lol, I have a set of anti-cables on my shelf, right where they belong!  :lol:

You can do a lot better than stranded 12g cable too...  the 17g SL speaker cables I sell will be a huge upgrade.  :wink:

Good Times

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #90 on: 2 Sep 2014, 01:34 am »
x3 re Anticables!

kirch

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #91 on: 3 Sep 2014, 01:07 pm »
Tuesday, Sept 2

Over the weekend I switched in some all copper Analysis Plus Oval 12’s to try and lessen the brightness.  Initially not thrilled.  Dulled down or veiled the highs too much.  Let's try interconnect swapping because I have a variety around here.

So it’s been an interconnect swap-fest today.  I kept the Oval 12's in for this experiment.  Really cool to experience the differences.  Funny (or should I say “sadly") that the best sounding interconnects were $50 Clarity Labs and two different $70 interconnects from Rapport that I bought from Bill at Response Audio at least 10 years ago.  All three totally kicked the ass of the Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Ovals I took out of the system, which were about $400 a pair if I recall, maybe more.  That being said the AP interconnects all together, sounded wonderful with the Audio Note AN-J’s.  The Outlaws are just different animals with different needs.  And there’s something in the makeup of all three pair of these less expensive interconnects that bring even more life to the Outlaws. 

Swapping the Acoustic Zen M2 Digital Crystal Reference to the Acoustic Zen “silver bytes” made no audible difference, although it did affect my wallet at the time of purchase.  I don’t recall what I spent on these digital cables, but I think it was between $125 and $200 with the Reference costing more than the silver bytes.

Lesson learned?  You never know what's gonna work best together.  If like me, you tend to bounce from component to component, you better plan on building a nice collection of interconnects of all varieties, ‘cause you never know which ones will bring your system’s sound to the next level.

And Dave - thanks for the input.  Louis is sending me a pair of your cables for me to try, not sure which ones though.  I'll let everyone know which ones and how they fair.  And that stranded 12 gauge stuff I tried was tinned OFC.  Not bad.  Not great.  A friend recommended I try some teflon/silver coated OFC.  Gonna try that too.

Re the anti-cables, I have to say in the right setup, I like them.  Not for solid state, but in my experience if you have a overly laid back tube system or speakers (read British), I like how they help tighten things up and help clean up the higher frequencies.  Right now I'm using them for the connection to the sub to effectively tighten up a flabby low end.  Still awaiting the sub from Louis.  Should be here in a week or two. 

More to come.

ClefChef

Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #92 on: 3 Sep 2014, 04:46 pm »
Hello Russell,
Yes I am sold, and have been for over five years since I heard my first Omegas.  You must be sold on the brands you mention too, even to the point of putting a link on this circle to a review of a competitors product.  I have been in audio for years and heard just about every kind of speaker in those years and haven't found a speaker that matches the Omegas...at any price.  I have not heard a dud from Louis and being a dealer I have heard quite a few of his speakers.

Tekton OB4.5 ar LONG out of production, so no - it is not a competitive product.

For one I'd like to see the specs of the RS5 driver and country of origin too. I had a number of Omega speakers (still have xr3) with Fostex, Hemp, Alnico and other drivers, including the ones with the new RS5 driver. They are not "magic" - they suffer from the same exact problems most single driver speakers do. The cabinetry work is first class though.

This new design of "hybrid" open baffle seems to be a bit of a compromise. I'd like to hear them to form my own impressions.

DaveC113

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #93 on: 3 Sep 2014, 04:55 pm »
Tekton OB4.5 ar LONG out of production, so no - it is not a competitive product.

For one I'd like to see the specs of the RS5 driver and country of origin too. I had a number of Omega speakers (still have xr3) with Fostex, Hemp, Alnico and other drivers, including the ones with the new RS5 driver. They are not "magic" - they suffer from the same exact problems most single driver speakers do. The cabinetry work is first class though.

This new design of "hybrid" open baffle seems to be a bit of a compromise. I'd like to hear them to form my own impressions.

Not sure anyone is claiming "magic" whatever that means. The RS5 covers about 40-20,000 Hz with a very even frequency response compared to most other single drivers.

Your post is on the negative side without actually saying anything except Omega speakers are not "magic", they have "problems" and are "a bit of a compromise". OK, fine. That is true of every speaker in the entire world. Your point?


ClefChef

Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #94 on: 3 Sep 2014, 05:00 pm »
Not sure anyone is claiming "magic" whatever that means. The RS5 covers about 40-20,000 Hz with a very even frequency response compared to most other single drivers.

Your post is on the negative side without actually saying anything except Omega speakers are not "magic", they have "problems" and are "a bit of a compromise". OK, fine. That is true of every speaker in the entire world. Your point?

So can we see the plot on the 40-20,000 Hz response of the RS5 driver, including impedance curves so we can actualy compare to most other single drivers  :wink:
My point is that fan clubs are not usually the best source of unbiased information on the product - speakers or otherwise. I'm not trying to be an ass, it's just when it comes to comparing products it is easier to bring out and compare the negative aspects of it. Singing praises is hardly helpful and is mostly the job of 6moons audio poets.

DaveC113

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #95 on: 3 Sep 2014, 05:28 pm »
So can we see the plot on the 40-20,000 Hz response of the RS5 driver, including impedance curves so we can actualy compare to most other single drivers  :wink:
My point is that fan clubs are not usually the best source of unbiased information on the product - speakers or otherwise. I'm not trying to be an ass, it's just when it comes to comparing products it is easier to bring out and compare the negative aspects of it. Singing praises is hardly helpful and is mostly the job of 6moons audio poets.

Than maybe you should be more specific so there's actually something to discuss. When you say "problems" and "a bit of a compromise", that is far too vague to be meaningful nor is it likely to lead to a reasonable discussion about anything, as that criticism is in the nature of building any speaker. Even speakers that cost more than my house could be said to be "a bit of a compromise", and thus have "problems". It seems like you just came here to bitch, and say "Omega speakers just aren't all that, man!"  Which is hardly useful, even less useful that the aspersions you cast on everyone here by labeling this forum a "fan club".

You say you have a set of Omegas with the RS5 driver, why don't you measure them yourself? And if you really want to have a discussion, which I seriously doubt, come back with something a little more insightful please. You're bringing down the overall quality of posts here to a dismal level.

ClefChef

Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #96 on: 3 Sep 2014, 05:39 pm »
Sorry you feel that way, Dave. Listening to some music should cheer you up  :thumb:

The things I vaguely mentioned as single driver problems is off axis frequency response, "shout" region in the 7-8k. Adding a second driver introduces phase shift, is no longer a single point, etc. Omega is not imune to these problems. Last I checked Louis was not using notch filters in his single driver speakers to rectify the shout region (heck, even Lowther builders use it) and the Super Alnico 8 I had were shouty (sorry  :( )
So these would be the negatives. Positives of single driver speaker - high sensitivity, easy to drive with tube amps, coherent single point source - all attributes of Omega single driver speakers.

Having manufacturers spec sheets and doing the measurements yourself is two VERY different things - manufacturers have to adhere to industry standards in doing the measurements (anechoic chambers, measurement equipment, etc).

I had 5 or 6 pairs of Omega speakers that I used with mostly tube (2a3, 300b, EL84) amps and some D-class. I also own or owned variuos Tekton and Zu single driver speakers. You could say I'm a single driver speaker fan. I am just more critical in my opinion - sorry if I hurt someone's feelings.

DaveC113

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #97 on: 3 Sep 2014, 06:15 pm »
I'm not in need of cheering up, but thanks for assuming that I do.   :thumb:

Ok... off-axis freq response isn't a problem. Many consider the dispersion pattern an advantage, but it depends on the diameter of the driver. I find the RS5 to be a good size to get controlled directivity without beaming too much. When used nearfield it reduces room interactions to the point they are not a major factor anymore.

I don't think the newest Omega driver are shouty at all and a notch filter would do more harm than good imo. The midrange bump is much less than in most other single drivers.

Also, not sure if you've compared Omega to Voxativ, Zellaton and Feastrex... those speakers cost FAR more than Omega and the performance is pretty comparable. Personally, I haven't heard a Lowther speaker that's nearly as good as Omegas and I've heard a few.

All speakers must compromise to some degree in some area, so not every speaker is a good fit for all tastes. I think people here are plenty willing to admit that, but there's also some things the Omegas do incredibly well. If high SPLs and dynamics that will give old ladies heart attacks and scare children are a priority then I don't think anyone would think a single driver from any brand would be a good choice. I've even said many times I don't feel like single drivers are the ideal compromise for me, but they are the right compromise given my priorities and my budget. If I could spend $10k+ on speakers I might own something different... but the forthcoming Speed12/RS5 outlaw combo would be nearly ideal for my preferences.

As for the 1.5 way design, sure it's a compromise too, but the xover point is low enough so it's not a major issue and I think most people would find it to be an improvement. I'd like to hear a pair too...

ClefChef

Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #98 on: 3 Sep 2014, 06:45 pm »
As for the 1.5 way design, sure it's a compromise too, but the xover point is low enough so it's not a major issue and I think most people would find it to be an improvement. I'd like to hear a pair too...

the problem with crossovers is that they introduce their own phase shifts and additional impedance to a driver. In Omega's 1.5 design the mid-high driver then should be attenuated to even out the response or find other ways of doing it. The crossover point is also high enough to be in the vocal region where it affects the sound of the speaker the most. Again, that's all theory - I'd like to hear it.

My favorite speaker is Tekton OB4.5, and there the solutions were quite interesting. Would be interesting to see how these two would compare.

pstrisik

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Re: Outlaw Partial Open Baffle
« Reply #99 on: 3 Sep 2014, 10:19 pm »
My understanding is that the 1.5's don't use a crossover per se.  Just an inductor on the bass driver which serves as low pass at 500Hz.  The main driver runs full range and gets signal straight from amp as with the single driver speakers.

My question about the design is in the balance of frequencies.  I don't understand electronics enough to know what changes in the FR curve there might be.  The second driver increases sensitivity substantially and reduces impedance to 4 ohm.  That will alter the sound of the main driver compared to a single driver version.  But does the second driver just augment everything below 500 or is the balance now shifted so that range, particularly 300 or so to 500 isn't too strong?  (I'm think in terms of the ported box design, not the OB, but don't know if that's relevant).

.....Peter