[werd]

Onoz $100 fuses. And the French think Quentin Tarantino is a genius. There's no justice in the world, I tell ya. None at all.

Who's Quentin Tarantino?

[wushuliu]

Who's Quentin Tarantino?

An overrated fuse. That keeps blowing.

[werd]

An overrated fuse. That keeps blowing.

Thought so.

[Roger A. Modjeski]

I know people at PFO and am crafting an email to one of them to comment on the review and make some suggestions on how they can better serve their readers. Maybe it will help, or maybe not.

I would hope that Roger could email Ted Denney and have a designer-to-designer chat with him. At which point we may get closer to the truth.

 

I did contact Ted Denney about the high breaking aspect. He was kind enough to offer a few fuses for testing. I just wrote Ted with my questions about the two million volts and the quantum stuff.

Here is a good explanation of quantum tunneling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling   One could interpret this as a bad thing for a conductor as tunneling is very non-linear, and actually causes negative resistance over part of the wave. This led me to a explanation of the tunnel diode. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_diode. If the improved fuse acts like that we don't want it.

see the picture at the end of this 6 moons review for the high voltage. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/synergistic/tesla_2.html

From an electrical point of view the two million volts are being dropped across the sparks, hardly anything across the fuse.  One could reduce the distance by half and the voltage by half for the same effect. Then half and half and half again.

[fastfred]

Transient power is directly related to how the amp transformer reacts to the local neighbourhood transformer.
Everything in between your amp transformer and that local neighbourhood transformer is going to be important.

Including power cords, outlets, house fuse boxes, AMP FUSES, location to the local transformer., time of day and
neighbourhood draw on power. Literally everything.

This whole discussion and its opposing views looks like people's under appreciation of how important the
local neighbourhood transformer is. That neighbourhood transformer is very much apart of your home audio
system. The way your system interacts is crucial to how your stereo/home theatre will sound.

I'm not a tech by any stretch of the imagination. Roger's amps use fuses incorporated in the design
 to protect the output tubes. There is a topic started by Roger called simply tuning fuses. You can find
it at the top of the Music Reference page along with 8 other permanent topics. Here's another observation,
in one of my solid state power amps, following the power supply fuses there are 2 fuses per channel which
help protect the output transistors on my amp. Late comers to this topic need to read the topic right from the
beginning.

I have no problem with these fuses if they do their job. Because a fuse is first and foremost a
safety device. Should not the specifications for the fuse be published as well as, the subjective part of the
review? If the fuse meets or exceeds it's specs, then I have no problem with the review. (although I wouldn't
pay the asking price of these fuses). The problem is there are no specs published.

The notion a fuse can not be improved beyond what .50 cents wields is beyond me. Yes maybe $50 usd is a
bit much, but what if it was $25?  Is that too much too?  Is it price or is the actual improvement that pisses
flat-Earthers off?

All it needs to be is more responsive (less resistive) while it maintains a rated blow current. Thats it! You can't tell me
this isn't possible? Everything else in front of a transformer has proven to be beneficial to soundstage. Including power
cables, outlets, fuse box improvements. Fuses seem to be in line with this group.  Sorry impedance rules here and how
the fuse drops the impedance the amp transformer sees right down to local neighbourhood transformer.

Sorry, but complaining about an audio reviewer isn't going to change that.

We are trying to do a public service here. If you replaced 5 fuses (as are in my amp) with tuning fuses costing
$89 apiece (the price listed in the PFO review). Thats $445 how would you feel, when the company you bought the
amp from voided your warranty? Would you replace that fuse with another tuning fuse? Or would you go back to the
old 50 cent fuses & eat the $445 you spent, plus whatever the cost of replacing tubes or output transistors plus any
other damage.

That's what this topic is about & that's why we try casting light on reviews which in our opinion don't go far enough.
If you are a review magazine, you need to step up to the plate. If all you are there for is entertainment then people
should be made aware of that. Kind of like the W in WWE stands for WORLD, the WE stands for wrestling entertainment.
You could even include the warning "kids don't do this at home"

                                                           ............................ fastfred

[Roger A. Modjeski]

The notion a fuse can not be improved beyond what .50 cents wields is beyond me. Yes maybe $50 usd is a bit much, but what if it was $25?  Is that too much too?  Is it price or is the actual improvement that pisses flat-Earthers off?

All it needs to be is more responsive (less resistive) while it maintains a rated blow current. Thats it! You can't tell me this isn't possible? Everything else in front of a transformer has proven to be beneficial to soundstage. Including power cables, outlets, fuse box improvements. Fuses seem to be in line with this group.  Sorry impedance rules here and how the fuse drops the impedance the amp transformer sees right down to local neighbourhood transformer.

Sorry, but complaining about an audio reviewer isn't going to change that.

Please keep in mind that I measured the voltage drop across a 2 amp fuse to be less than 0.2 volts. Your line varies several volts. Even if you reduce the fuse drop to zero you haven't done anything significant. Yes, impedance rules and the fuse is insignificant.

If you want a better example think of how this 0.1 or even 0.5 ohm fuse figures into the primary of a CD player or preamp transformer whose DC resistance is 40 ohms. Again we are talking about millivolts drop, the change in that drop being even less. I've got bigger fish to fry to even bother with something so insignificant.

What we are trying to do here is provide a little resistance (haha) to the flood of unwarranted press these fuses are getting. It's never easy to go against the tide but there are times when reasonable people have to speak up, otherwise this hobby we love loses all respect.

I have a Tesla Coil and if I could set up a booth at the show and get $50 for treating a 50 cent fuse I would be a wealthy man but not able to sleep at night.

[werd]

Please keep in mind that I measured the voltage drop across a 2 amp fuse to be less than 0.2 volts. Your line varies several volts. Even if you reduce the fuse drop to zero you haven't done anything significant. Yes, impedance rules and the fuse is insignificant.

If you want a better example think of how this 0.1 or even 0.5 ohm fuse figures into the primary of a CD player or preamp transformer whose DC resistance is 40 ohms. Again we are talking about millivolts drop, the change in that drop being even less. I've got bigger fish to fry to even bother with something so insignificant.

What we are trying to do here is provide a little resistance (haha) to the flood of unwarranted press these fuses are getting. It's never easy to go against the tide but there are times when reasonable people have to speak up, otherwise this hobby we love loses all respect.

I have a Tesla Coil and if I could set up a booth at the show and get $50 for treating a 50 cent fuse I would be a wealthy man but not able to sleep at night.

On an amp it would be the slo blow rating that enables transient power. Measuring the fuse after the rated current in working state into an unregulated power supply?

[RDavidson]

On an amp it would be the slo blow rating that enables transient power. Measuring the fuse after the rated current in working state into an unregulated power supply?

Don't think this is correct. Amps don't draw "transient power" from the wall. Transient power (well, ALL power to the signal amplifying parts) in an amp are provided by the power supply (transformer and capacitor bank) unless we're talking about OTL amps, but I you know I mean. Amps continuously draw power from the wall......like continuously topping off a small pool being filled by the ocean. The pool is the amp's power supply. The ocean is the power station.

[werd]

Then why does my 14B use a slow blow fuse?  Transient current draw into the power supply is common. Peak momentary current draw at the outlet can be 20 to 30 amps on a working un regulated power supply.  Bottlenecking those transients is not what you want to do. Crap power cords, lousy house wiring, etc nerfs power supply outputs. It all shows up in the soundstage.

[Devil Doc]

The Psychological community has explained why you hear what you hear. Believers just choose to ignore them.

Doc

[RDavidson]

Then why does my 14B use a slow blow fuse?  Transient current draw into the power supply is common. Peak momentary current draw at the outlet can be 20 to 30 amps on a working un regulated power supply.  Bottlenecking those transients is not what you want to do. Crap power cords, lousy house wiring, etc nerfs power supply outputs. It all shows up in the soundstage.

It likely uses a slow blow so that it can tolerate the power in-rush when the amp is turned on from a cold state, while the power supply is being filled (to use my pool analogy again) and stabilizes.

[wushuliu]

The Psychological community has explained why you hear what you hear. Believers just choose to ignore them.

Doc

There are peer-reviewed psychology studies on audio comparisons between components and/or gear? I didn't know that. Where are they?

[DaveC113]

Don't think this is correct. Amps don't draw "transient power" from the wall. Transient power (well, ALL power to the signal amplifying parts) in an amp are provided by the power supply (transformer and capacitor bank) unless we're talking about OTL amps, but I you know I mean. Amps continuously draw power from the wall......like continuously topping off a small pool being filled by the ocean. The pool is the amp's power supply. The ocean is the power station.

I don't feel the "pool of electrons" analogy is correct, even for class A amps. The transfer of power is direct despite devices like caps and coils that can store energy and this also explains why everything that has to do with power delivery becomes audible, even fuses. In essence, werd's description is much closer to my actual experience and the "pool of electrons" analogy does not match up with what I actually hear and experience.

[werd]

It likely uses a slow blow so that it can tolerate the power in-rush when the amp is turned on from a cold state, while the power supply is being filled (to use my pool analogy again) and stabilizes.

That and a Soft start. Yes that too.

[werd]

I don't feel the "pool of electrons" analogy is correct, even for class A amps. The transfer of power is direct despite devices like caps and coils that can store energy and this also explains why everything that has to do with power delivery becomes audible, even fuses. In essence, werd's description is much closer to my actual experience and the "pool of electrons" analogy does not match up with what I actually hear and experience.

Well this condition is described right in my 14B manual. Knowing Bryston (to not resort to hyperbole) especially when describing safe operation in amps. Under power conditioning.

http://bryston.com/products/power_amps/14BSST-2.html

[RDavidson]

I don't feel the "pool of electrons" analogy is correct, even for class A amps. The transfer of power is direct despite devices like caps and coils that can store energy and this also explains why everything that has to do with power delivery becomes audible, even fuses. In essence, werd's description is much closer to my actual experience and the "pool of electrons" analogy does not match up with what I actually hear and experience.

Pretty sure my analogy isn't far off the mark. The power doesn't go straight from the wall to an amp's output devices in any case I've ever seen. Perhaps the power supply "pool" is small or less efficient in some amps, so any time there's a significant depletion in electrons, it is noticeable (though not necessarily clipping the amp). Now, I'm not disregarding anyone's personal experience with what they hear and experience. I'm just trying to make sense of / clear up things a bit.

[Devil Doc]

There are peer-reviewed psychology studies on audio comparisons between components and/or gear? I didn't know that. Where are they?

Sensory data is sensory data. Doesn't matter who or what generates it. If you're really interested you can google "Sensory Data Accuracy", and get more info than you could possibly assimilate.

Doc

[RDavidson]

Well this condition is described right in my 14B manual. Knowing Bryston (to not resort to hyperbole) especially when describing safe operation in amps. Under power conditioning.

http://bryston.com/products/power_amps/14BSST-2.html

Note that the 14B already has a MASSIVE power supply (which is essentially a power conditioner), including (I believe) 2 toroidal transformers. You'd likely benefit more from adding a dedicated line to your amp versus adding a Torus. When you need tons of power, you might not be refilling "the pool" fast enough. But man, you'd have to be driving some very tough speakers in a BIG room. Knowing Bryston, the amp would likely shut down before any type of power instability occurs (saving your amp and speakers).

[Roger A. Modjeski]

It likely uses a slow blow so that it can tolerate the power in-rush when the amp is turned on from a cold state, while the power supply is being filled (to use my pool analogy again) and stabilizes.

The turn-on inrush is enormous. We often have to put in a larger fuse than the maximum rating at full output power to get past the inrush. A soft start is another option but complicated the amp and usually requires a relay, just another thing that might fail down the road.

You can actually figure the inrush knowing the impedance of your wall socket and the primary resistance plus reflected secondary resistance of the transformer. When the caps are discharged they are virtually a short. The total resistance is just a few ohms in a large amp. In my OTL the total resistance is less than 5 ohms. Add an ohm for the wall and you have 120 volts/6 ohms= 20 amps. Note that the fuse resistance or 0.1 ohms will not affect the result on either inrush or playing where the current is about 2 amps max.

Several posts back John R warned us this is getting close to quarantine status again. I do think once again we are straying from the original topic. Like cables and power cords fuse listening is so subjective. Those who hear a difference don't want to hear from others that they don't.

Why the purveyors of these devices have surfaced I do not know. Do they sit around and think "well lets try this an see if it flies?" It certainly seems to be profit driven. They like to make up science to sell their wares.  I do object to any statements that fly in the face of known electrical laws.

Perhaps Fred can get us back on track. My purpose here is to moderate and provide electrical information so the reader can decide for himself the scientific value of the claims being made. I cannot do much other than state the electrical facts to dispel the magic element that these products seem to trade upon.  I hope it is helpful to know the values of these electrical parameters to put them in their proper light.

[werd]

Pretty sure my analogy isn't far off the mark. The power doesn't go straight from the wall to an amp's output devices in any case I've ever seen. Perhaps the power supply "pool" is small or less efficient in some amps, so any time there's a significant depletion in electrons, it is noticeable (though not necessarily clipping the amp). Now, I'm not disregarding anyone's personal experience with what they hear and experience. I'm just trying to make sense of / clear up things a bit.

Yah I know its a beaut