[watercourse]

Thanks for your reply.

As I said, there are always elements in any industry who deserve to be considered with caution. I'm not taking some Pollyanna position of saying the the Holy Hobby is as pure as the driven snow. I find the paranoia and hyperbole exhibited in the post ( for example ) which I mentioned to be extreme and all too common on AC. Anyone who thinks that most of the audio industry is crooked should just move on to and take up another hobby before it slowly drives them mad. If you think the table is rigged, feel free to push your chair away, get up and leave. It's no wonder threads like these swerve in and out of the weeds of Quarantine until they finally get binned. They get used as a soapbox by people with agendas to push and it's always the same "they're out to get us and our money" nonsense proposing the existence of some industry-wide conspiracy to feed on the weak and the lame, excluding, of course, the few, the proud, the brave who, in the face of insurmountable odds, manage to fight the good fight in an industry more corrupt than Serpico could have withstood. You know, the guys that built my stuff, 'cuz I would never fall for any of the evildoing that is woven into the very fabric of audio, right? Malice and derision gets directed towards the dummies who "spend too much" on "the wrong things" according to the panel of self-appointed experts who always have the inside track, be it some tweak or cables or the"wrong" amplifier or speaker design or whatever else is the hobbyhorse du jour. Most of this has little to nothing to do with audio when all is said and done.

As to who's to blame, it's certainly not the vast majority of people in this industry who are just doing a job. Why should those people get tarred with the same brush ? If audiophiles are supposedly insistently gullible and locked in a vain pursuit of status and ego gratification ( and by the way, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in finding that categorization to be both incorrect and offensive ), a fair number of them also seem to struggle with paranoid delusions of persecution and an unending compulsion to proselytize on behalf of their One True Faith. And it would be nice if they would get over it.

And by the way, "most of the people in" ANY "industry are looking for your wallet", bardamu. What happens beyond that is pretty much up to you.

D.D.

Absolutely.

I put my offer out to Roger, because I know he knows his stuff. I also know that theories - regardless of how grounded they are in laws, rules, theorems, etc. - remain theories until tested. Science doesn't work any other way. Personal knowledge doesn't work any other way either.

[Freo-1]

That's a very succinct summary of the problem with fuses. In some cases, for them to offer protection, they are forced to operate into their thermally reactive region. In some cases, that can have a sonic impact. This is the kernel of truth lying beneath the hype.

In such cases, the solution is less likely an 'improved' fuse than it is an alternative device. There are other types of protection devices, some of which are resettable. In some cases, an acceptable solution is to discard the protection altogether – as with fuses which protect the drivers comprising one's speakers.

Think about the problem with fuses as similar to that with MOVs, except that the latter can fail disastrously when forced to operate in a continuous manner as a voltage clamp (a reason to avoid 130V MOVs).

Getting back to the fuses, I could not agree more with the criticisms of Tuning Fuses based upon their operation as protection devices. Extremism is rarely, if ever, accurate. It's also completely unnecessary.

A fuse under normal operating conditions is a direct short, not a resistor.  Scotty is giving the fuse more qualities than are actually at play.  I stand by the assertion that tuning fuses are junk science. 

Hopefully, Roger can weigh in and provide additional input.

[Roger A. Modjeski]

HI, Nice to see this discussion is still going on and civil for the most part.

A fuse under normal operating conditions is a direct short, not a resistor.  Scotty is giving the fuse more qualities than are actually at play.  I stand by the assertion that tuning fuses are junk science. 

Hopefully, Roger can weigh in and provide additional input.

A fuse has a very small resistance and the change in that resistance with temperature is even smaller. To determine its influence those numbers must be compared to the other numbers in the circuit. If you have a million dollars I doubt you would miss a buck or two. If you have only few bucks one or two lost would be significant. Its the same way with science in many things. Throwing a bucket of water in the ocean is not the same as throwing it into a pool or your sink. So lets get some perspective.

As I have said the total circuit resistance in the home plus power amp is few ohms. A 5 amp slow blow fuse http://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuses/cartridge-fuses/5x20mm-fuses/215/215005.aspx
has a resistance of 0.015 ohms. In a 3 ohm circuit that is 0.5%. If the resistance varies 2 to 1 over the temp change due to current change this is still a small number which is made smaller by the large filter caps in the power amp. This is also nothing compared to instantaneous changes in the line voltage.

For use in a CD player or preamp the numbers are all larger and the fuse resistance percentage even less. In addition unlike a power amp that draws varying current with signal, these devices do not so there is no change in (the already insignificant) resistance.

Believe what you will, this is what is going on electrically and that is the subject here.

[bdp24]

     I'm sure the fuse makers are not claiming the alleged improvement in sound afforded by their product has anything to do with resistance, or any other traditional electrical performance characteristic. But just as with cable makers, they have to have SOME story with which to sell their fuse. And they've gotten away with it, at least with technically ignorant (no offence intended; the word has negative connotations, but I'm not using it as a synonym for stupid, as is so often the case these days) subjective reviewers.
     I love the story Frank Van Alstine told years ago: One of the then new cable makers was claiming that the low frequencies and the high frequencies of a signal would travel down the company's cable only via the appropriate strands of wire in their multi-gauge cable. Frank suggested that only the strands of the cable intended for the high frequencies be inserted into an AC outlet, and the other end of the wires be placed in the company man's hand, to test whether or not those strands would or would not carry the 60Hz current. The point being, of course, that if the claim were untrue the man would be electrocuted. The suggestion was met with a blank stare. Good one, Frank! I'm sure everyone here knows the current would travel down ANY wire, but the claim of the cable company was their only selling point. Without it, they had no story with which to sell their wire. I don't recall any subjective reviewer expressing any reservations about that company's claim for the design of their cable .

[Roger A. Modjeski]

When I want to know something and can do a simple experiment to find something out then I do it. This is how one can build hands-on knowledge. If you do the experiment yourself who are you going to believe, the experiment or the purveyors of myth? I was curious about how much a fuse resistance changes with temperature. I took a 2.5 amp, 5x20mm slow blow made by Littlefuse. It is the same type I use in all my amplifiers for the mains.

One cannot measure this with an ohm meter and the current has to be flowing of course. I simply connected it to a constant current supply (you can use a voltage supply with a 10 ohm resistor to do a similar thing. Here is the data,

Current      Voltage drop
0.1 amp      10 mv
0.5 amp       48 mV
1 amp        100 mV
2 amps       210-220 mV

I also took the fuse out a few times and got different readings due to holder contact resistance. Putting some Deoxit on the fuse lowered the 2 amp drop to 130 mV which is a good improvement. However this drop of 200 mV even if it doubles is small compared to the 120 Volt line to which we must compare.

Perhaps we should all take our fuses out, clean them and put them back in if we want to listen for some improvement.

The fuse was warm at 2 amps and it is interesting to note that its resistance hardly changes from 0.1 amp to 2 amps being 100 mV per amp.

[fastfred]

 A plea for someone to take on the task of honest review; or how do we go about reclaiming our hobby?


One recurring theme I see in the current audiophile press is dismay over the direction to which “HI END” AUDIO is turning. If you go to my website you will see references to many articles which try to help the neophyte audiophile, spend his audio dollars wisely. Is it any wonder that when a normal well adjusted human being is introduced to our hobby, that they throw up their hands in dismay and run for the Bose boutique in terror, when confronted by a sales person who’s already convinced them they need a $10,000 plus system, who then tries to up sell them three to four thousand dollars of speaker, interconnect, and mains cables. In most cases all this person is looking for is a quality sound system to listen to music on.

fyi I've started a new thread on the topic of hi/end reviews with links to some interesting stuff.

                      ......................... fastfred   

[fastfred]

A plea for someone to take on the task of honest review; or how do we go about reclaiming our hobby?


The other article titled: ( http://positive-feedback.com/Issue74/fuses.htm )

(HiFi Supreme and Audio Horizons' "Platinum Reference More Than A Fuse”) Fuses by Robert Youman.
The definition of a fuse:
……a safety device consisting of a strip of wire that melts and breaks an electric circuit if the current exceeds a safe level. My complaint here is if you are reviewing a fuse shouldn’t you be testing this fuse for what it’s designed for? Actually stressing the fuse enough to cause it to blow. Then comparing the fuse to it’s specifications to see if it failed as it should have when it should have.

If these products actually do their job as fuses, to protect the circuit they’re part of, then I would say that the verbiage used to describe how wonderful they are & the attributes they bring to the listening experience are warranted.

 But nowhere in this article does it even say what these fuses were designed for and what their specs are. Positive Feedback Online should be brought to task for the gross irresponsibility of publishing this review. Refer to Rogers post about tuning fuse from 2013.  ( http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105425.0 )

Well PFO is at it again. Here's a link to another tuning fuse product this time from cable manufacturer Synergistic Research  ( http://positive-feedback.com/Issue75/red_fuses.htm ).

The interesting thing about these tuning fuse reviews is no mention is made about the
voltage of the fuse & the current it’s designed for, whether they are slow blow etc, etc.
This fellow is the same person who reviewed the other 2 brands of hi/end audio fuses.
I would hope Synergistic Research being an American Company cable manufacturing company
knows how to manufacture a fuse properly. All the reviewer said under the heading Design 
was how these new products compared to his earlier review in last months PFO. Again no
mention of whether these fuses could actually do their job properly. ( protect the equipment
in which they are installed ).

I can’t see how they could based on the following quote: ( the 2nd. under the design heading )

“The Synergistic Research Reference RED fuse is a horse of a different color. The basic design features proprietary alloy wire and
end caps utilizing anti-resonant ceramic bodies. They are treated with 2,000,000 volts of electricity that Synergistic Research calls
Quantum Tunneling. In addition, Synergistic Research claims that "a new treatment process applied exclusively to RED fuses realigns
the crystal structure of both the burn wire and the end caps for a refinement in high frequency characteristics and improved timbre linearity".

If after this treatment they actually can do the job of a fuse then the only quibble I have is the price charged to the gullible among us. I think
perhaps the gov’t department responsible for standards & measurements should be made aware of these products. What if someone installed
these fuses in their equipment & started a fire, what if said fire caused an injury or death.

I repeat If the product can do what it’s designed for ( after all it’s called a fuse ) & if it can be designed to improve how a given component sounds
then go ahead and buy them if you can afford them. ( $89 to $99)

                                             ………………………….. a very disgusted fastfred

[G Georgopoulos]

A fuse is a safety device not an audio device,it's first priority is to keep circuitry safe from destruction,...
fast blow fuses are opened at 150% of their rated current...
faster fuses can be designed with solid state devices to open much faster...
not an expert, just an experimenter...

[Guy 13]

Hi all.
Yes, a fuse is first a safety device,
then second it might be a audio improvement device.
At 100 USD a fuse, you better make sure you don't replace a 5 amps fuse
by a 2 amps fuse.
If it was me, I would hate to see a 100 USD fuse blow within a fraction of a second
and if you have a problem with your amplifier or the same, who can afford to blow several fuses in a row within the time you realize that you have a problem with the unit the fuse is supposed to protect.
On the other hand, if you can afford it, then who cares.
I am sure that those believers will install the super duper HiFi fuse without even cleaning the contacts and say that there is a HUGE sound improvement.
Well I am sure the manufacturer and the dealer will laugh their head off right up to the bank.
I don't feel sorry for the believers, after all, it's their money.
This month, I will make a test with a Signal Cable power cable I purchased a few years back to see/hear what everybody was all the talking about.
I did not hear any improvement in the sound on my tube amplifier
(Decware SE84C+) and my CD Player (Rega Apollo)
but this time, I will be with a audio Vietnamese friend of mine
and we will be using his equipment
and he will tell me if he hears an improvement.
If he agrees, I want to blindfold him and switch from a stock cable
to the Super Duper cable so that the he's not bias by knowing
which cable is connected to his equipment.
I am convinced that it will be a lot of fun
and it will confirm my thoughts
and I will also participate into the blind folding thing.
I love this hobby and all it's exchange of thoughts.

Guy 13

 

[fastfred]

Hello George:

I wrote a letter to the editors @ PFO with link to this post. You are absolutely correct a fuse is a safety device.

In my opinion the specs for the fuse should be published along with the review of the dubious effect they have

on the sound. Well that's not happening. All they yap about is how the imaging or bass response is improved.

                                                               ..................................... Fastfred

P.T. Barnum said "there's a sucker born every minute"

I'm not sure who said this "if you can't persuade them with logic, baffle them with bullish_t.

[Guy 13]

Hello George:

I wrote a letter to the editors @ PFO with link to this post. You are absolutely correct a fuse is a safety device.

In my opinion the specs for the fuse should be published along with the review of the dubious effect they have

on the sound. Well that's not happening. All they yap about is how the imaging or bass response is improved.

                                                               ..................................... Fastfred

P.T. Barnum said "there's a sucker born every minute"

I'm not sure who said this "if you can't persuade them with logic, baffle them with bullish_t.

Hi fastfred.
I know a guy that had a business and he built his business on that sentence:
" There's a sucker born every minute "
I know, I use to do service and start up for him.
He even made me a bank certified check that bounced.
I don't want to slap my suspenders (Probably not the right expression, but I am sure you know what I mean) but I use to design and build industrial gas burner panels and I did the sizing of all the fuses in the panel from 24Volts to 575 Volts.
Therefore, I think a know a thing or two about fuses.
Someone might say, what does that have to do with audio fuses?
Well, for one, fuses are protection devices.
O.K. I will get off your hair, since what I am writing is far from being constructive.

Guy 13

[Roger A. Modjeski]

Thanks to all for keeping this thread going. I read the review and particularity take issue with the following statement.

They are treated with 2,000,000 volts of electricity that Synergistic Research calls Quantum Tunneling. In addition, Synergistic Research claims that "a new treatment process applied exclusively to RED fuses realigns the crystal structure of both the burn wire and the end caps for a refinement in high frequency characteristics and improved timbre linearity".

First at 30,000 volts per inch for the breakdown of air we a spark that will jump 67 inches. Perhaps they do it in a vacuum. Two million volts is not easy to obtain from anything but a Van de Graaffe generator and a small one only does 100,000 volts.

The problem with voltage is also where do you apply it. Across the fuse is impossible, from the fuse to ground at 67 inches? What does elevating a fuse above ground do anyway. These are the claims we should be addressing as they are pure foolishness. 

How about one letter per volt to the editor stating how foolish that claim is.

[Guy 13]

Thanks to all for keeping this thread going. I read the review and particularity take issue with the following statement.

They are treated with 2,000,000 volts of electricity that Synergistic Research calls Quantum Tunneling. In addition, Synergistic Research claims that "a new treatment process applied exclusively to RED fuses realigns the crystal structure of both the burn wire and the end caps for a refinement in high frequency characteristics and improved timbre linearity".

First at 30,000 volts per inch for the breakdown of air we a spark that will jump 67 inches. Perhaps they do it in a vacuum. Two million volts is not easy to obtain from anything but a Van de Graaffe generator and a small one only does 100,000 volts.

The problem with voltage is also where do you apply it. Across the fuse is impossible, from the fuse to ground at 67 inches? What does elevating a fuse above ground do anyway. These are the claims we should be addressing as they are pure foolishness. 

How about one letter per volt to the editor stating how foolish that claim is.

Hi Roger.
Give me all the details
and I will send him an e-mail telling him that his claim is foolish.
2,000,000 volts, do they think all audiophiles are ignorant and stupid ?
Coming up with a claim like that, that's what he must think.
And by the way, what does that prove other that trying to impress a buyer.
" WOW ! My friend,
did you know that the fuse I am using in my amplifier
was tested at 2,000,000 volts
that's the proof that it's a super fuse
and if it can withstand 2,000,000 Volts it can sure make your amplifier sound better."
Draken double drak, does he think we are all stupid?
Well, maybe not all of us, but some of us
and it's like they say:
There is a (Ignorant) sucker born every minute,
and if it's not every minute, it every 5 minutes,
that's still a lot of suckers...

Guy 13
 

[apollophono]

Hmmm.  10audio.com also had a review on the Audio Horizons "More Than A Fuse" fuse.  I believe Jerry Seigel
was the reviewer and proprietor of said review website.  That review was done this February.  He actually put them
in amplifiers.  He has a link to the Audio Horizons website, but there is no mention of any fuses to be bought. 

Is all this a ploy to get people to advertisers websites?     

[fastfred]

Hmmm.  10audio.com also had a review on the Audio Horizons "More Than A Fuse" fuse.  I believe Jerry Seigel
was the reviewer and proprietor of said review website.  That review was done this February.  He actually put them
in amplifiers.  He has a link to the Audio Horizons website, but there is no mention of any fuses to be bought. 

Is all this a ploy to get people to advertisers websites?   

I totally agree it is a

It occurred to me while re/reading an earlier on page of this forum , to ask what audiophile related magazines do you read??
& which ones would you recommend for honesty & accurracy  in reporting. Are there any internet magazines which charge a
fee, and accept no advertising left out there. Those 2 attributes could be indicators of honest reviewing. A technical editor would be a plus.

If you are interested there are several topics in the Music Reference Circle which deal with the tuning fuse issue.

                                                              ............................ (fastfred)

[Clio09]

"2,000,000 volts, do they think all audiophiles are ignorant and stupid ?"

Perhaps the terms ignorant and stupid are a bit strong. More like gullible. After all, as I wrote in another post on another thread here, audiophiles prefer to think of their hobby as more art than science. In fact I would go so far as to say all art and no science. Art is subjective and easier to understand than science, and it creates more excitement. To the growing majority of audiophiles science is dull. Proof is easily found in many of the threads on Audiogon. Which by the way has played a huge part in fueling the growth in the number of manufacturers, specifically the wire and fuse guys, that design and more importantly market their products first and foremost to the artsy audiophiles preferences as opposed to designing them to be safe and reliable. Just look at the nomenclature and vocabulary used in the hobby these days. Reviewers are part of the problem too as they feed the well audiophiles drink from.

What we need to realize is that many manufacturers today are doing the simple thing from a business perspective. They are following the money. From the manufacturers perspective why spend time and energy educating the audiophile who is more than happy to throw money at products such as boutique fuses that use fancy marketing terms to describe their benefits. It's all about marketing which is easier for the "new breed" of audiophile to digest than science will ever be. Am I being a bit jaded here? I suppose so but then again I can look in the mirror and with some embarrassment say that I have fallen prey to such marketing tactics. That is until I met someone who has spent time educating me otherwise. Lucky for me my 401k is still fully intact. Like my mentor, we are lucky to have people like Roger who is willing to invest time and resources to educate. If only more people would listen and learn.

[RDavidson]

From Wikipedia, regarding quantum tunneling (which Synergistic claims they use):

"Quantum tunnelling falls under the domain of quantum mechanics: the study of what happens at the quantum scale. This process cannot be directly perceived, but much of its understanding is shaped by the microscopic world, which classical mechanics cannot adequately explain."

Here's the link if you wish to read it in it's entirety:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling

So Synergistic is claiming to use something that exists in science, but is very difficult to understand (let alone explain) by anyone who isn't a quantum physicist or deeply engaged in this realm. This is the perfect scapegoat for a strong concoction of snake oil, I think.

[Roger A. Modjeski]

Does Positive Feedback Online have a method for readers to comment on reviews?  I see that Stereophile does and the comments are often answered by the reviewer or John Atkinson. If they do I would be asking the reviewer some questions which he might try to answer or forward to the manufacturer.

I would really like to know about the 2 million volts is applied. There used to be a way to report false advertising. is that gone too?

Here is some commentary from the review in 2007  http://www.stereophile.com/powerlineaccessories/907fuse/index.html

this is 2014  http://www.stereophile.com/content/about-tweaks-and-snake-oil

I just typed "fuses" into the search on Stereophile. It appears most of the commentary feels these are foolishness. A few think the reviewer vetted them, though there is no evidence of this.

[srb]

There are a number of stun guns claiming to have from 2 million to 6.8 million volts.  One comment I read on stun gun voltage:

The limiting factors are the voltage breakdown of air and the shape and spacing of the electrodes (or any uninsulated internal high voltage wiring). The voltage breakdown of dry air between spherical electrodes (an ideal case) is approximately 33 kV/cm. In extremely humid air it will be slightly higher. In air at high altitudes it will be significantly less. I'll be generous and estimate that the electrodes on the stun gun are 5cm (2") apart. That would mean that the voltage developed could only reach about 165,000 volts before it begins to form an arc. Once an arc occurs, the ionized air in the arc conducts relatively easily and the voltage will plummet to something on the order of a few 1000 volts.

Perhaps the 2 million volts required for "quantum tunneling" can be applied from a pulse-type stun gun device for a one nanosecond duration?   

In which case, a < $20 device should do the trick!  Or how about this "6.8 million volt" beauty for $4.50!
http://www.amazon.com/MTW-800-Black-Million-Rechargeable-Flashlight/dp/B00563GN4S/ref=sr_1_3?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1410283189&sr=1-3&keywords=2 million volt stun gun

Steve

[fastfred]

Does Positive Feedback Online have a method for readers to comment on reviews?  I see that Stereophile does and the comments
are often answered by the reviewer or John Atkinson. If they do I would be asking the reviewer some questions which he might try
to answer or forward to the manufacturer.
 
I would really like to know about how the 2 million volts is applied. There used to be a way to report false advertising. is that gone too?

"2,000,000 volts, do they think all audiophiles are ignorant and stupid ?"

Perhaps the terms ignorant and stupid are a bit strong. More like gullible. After all, as I wrote in another post on another thread here, audiophiles
prefer to think of their hobby as more art than science. In fact I would go so far as to say all art and no science. Art is subjective and easier to
understand than science, and it creates more excitement. To the growing majority of audiophiles science is dull. Proof is easily found in many of the
threads on Audiogon. Which by the way has played a huge part in fueling the growth in the number of manufacturers, specifically the wire and fuse guys,
that design and more importantly market their products first and foremost to the artsy audiophiles preferences as opposed to designing them to be safe
and reliable. Just look at the nomenclature and vocabulary used in the hobby these days. Reviewers are part of the problem too as they feed the well
audiophiles drink from.

What we need to realize is that many manufacturers today are doing the simple thing from a business perspective. They are following the money. From
the manufacturers perspective why spend time and energy educating the audiophile who is more than happy to throw money at products such as boutique
fuses that use fancy marketing terms to describe their benefits. It's all about marketing which is easier for the "new breed" of audiophile to digest than
science will ever be. Am I being a bit jaded here? I suppose so but then again I can look in the mirror and with some embarrassment say that I have fallen
prey to such marketing tactics. That is until I met someone who has spent time educating me otherwise. Lucky for me my 401k is still fully intact. Like my
mentor, we are lucky to have people like Roger who is willing to invest time and resources to educate. If only more people would listen and learn.

 Hello Roger:

You will find 2 links to the editors in the PFO table of contents under the heading Reverbrations in a column Titled "Our Readers Respond… and We Respond
Right Back!"  ( http://positive-feedback.com/Issue75/letters.htm ).   

To clio09 & anyone else on this forum who agrees that tuning fuses as they are being presented might in fact be a scam; I urge you to do as I have already done
& Roger is preparing to do; that is to send a letter of protest to PFO. Here is what I sent PFO earlier today. It was a response to another letter sent by a PFO reader.

To the editors:

I agree with Mr. Fant, the review was done well, from a subjective point of view. My quarrel

with this review is that no reference is made to the electrical specifications of these fuses in

the reviews. I know of one manufacturer who will void your warranty if you use them in his products.

A fuse first & foremost is a safety device.  Don’t you think it’s your responsibility to make sure a product

does what it’s supposed to do do electrically, & should that not be part of the review? I know that fuses

that are normally used in audio equipment must be designed properly and used in a proper manner. If you

wrap a tube in tinfoil & blow up your amp you void the warranty. If you use the wrong fuse in your amp

and it chernobyl’s , Putin will be looking for you. There may be legal ramifications as well. Use your imagination for a

worst case scenario. (a fire)  How will you feel if you knowingly publish a review that leads to someone using the product

and then getting hurt. How could this happen? Well how many of us have ducked out for 20 minutes to get a loaf of

bread leaving the system to warm up? ( let alone forgetting to turn it off )

Remember you are a well respected magazine.

                                                     ………………………………… Fred Petersen  (fastfred )