[Rick Craig]

Based on your experience using an unknown model 18H that came out of some guys car stereo? 

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?33824-Audio-Technology-woofer

That's the only time I've ever seen you say anything about using an AT driver.  Just curious if you have any other experience with AT woofers, and if so which ones?

Yes, based on my initial experience with the driver noted in that thread. Where it came from is really irrelevant; in fact, there are many auto systems using high end drivers these days. I've also seen Klippel tests on various drivers from many manufacturers which helps to sort out which ones I like for a particular application.

As I noted in the thread I hoped that the other AT models showed better performance and it looks like some of the more recent designs are improved with the edge resonance. My thought was for that kind of money I would expect a more advanced cone and edge treatment to avoid the resonance breakup - maybe the newer sandwich cone material addresses that? The poly cone from the 18H is pretty dated; for instance, the latest poly Curv-Cone that Seas uses is superior in my opinion.

[Vapor Audio]

That confirms what I suspected.  You only have hands on experience with one pair of drivers 5+ years ago, pulled from someones car stereo, and of unknown configuration.  Even you have to admit that making broad-strokes "they're inferior" type statements, which you have done many times about the AT drivers, based on that experience is of questionable value. 

I don't intend to say any more here, or attempt to derail your thread about the excellent Satori drivers.  I just wanted to set the record straight so people can put your opinion of the AT drivers in proper context. 

[Rick Craig]

That confirms what I suspected.  You only have hands on experience with one pair of drivers 5+ years ago, pulled from someones car stereo, and of unknown configuration.  Even you have to admit that making broad-strokes "they're inferior" type statements, which you have done many times about the AT drivers, based on that experience is of questionable value. 

I don't intend to say any more here, or attempt to derail your thread about the excellent Satori drivers.  I just wanted to set the record straight so people can put your opinion of the AT drivers in proper context.

My opinion is based on what I observed as well as reading about how some of the AT drivers fared in Klippel tests. The Dynaudio lineage is still there - high prices with some drivers performing well but not always up to the level of their cost. I guess you somehow feel threatened by my opinion and think you have to undermine me. It's really poor form to post in another manufacturer's circle here to make yourself look better. Perhaps I should jump in your forum and raise some issues?

[Vapor Audio]

My opinion is based on what I observed as well as reading about how some of the AT drivers fared in Klippel tests. The Dynaudio lineage is still there - high prices with some drivers performing well but not always up to the level of their cost. I guess you somehow feel threatened by my opinion and think you have to undermine me. It's really poor form to post in another manufacturer's circle here to make yourself look better. Perhaps I should jump in your forum and raise some issues?

I was simply making the point that your experience is quite limited with the AT drivers, which you'd have to admit it is.  That's it Rick, there's no need to go on the offensive. 

Per Skaaning knows exactly what he's doing by intentionally introducing the voice coil offset which everybody misinterpreted in the Klippel testing.  I know that everybody assumes that offset is immediately bad, but why do you think the AT's have class leading mid-band distortion?  It was a conscious decision by a savvy designer.  There are ways that the AT drivers outperform any 7" woofers available, there are also ways the Illuminators outperform any 7" woofers available.  There's nothing in the Klippel testing that says the AT drivers are inferior to the Illuminators or Satori, just a different set of decisions made in their design. 

People value your opinion Rick, just as they value mine.  The other 20 times I've seen you say that the AT woofers aren't in the same league as some others I've let it go, not said a thing.  This time I decided to speak up, knowing that you would likely accuse me of self-promoting bad form.  However my motive is in the interest of the reader, not my own.  I could have just as easily made the case that your attempts to malign the AT drivers was drawn from selfish motives, but I did not nor would I.  I chalk it up to simple oversight, drawing a conclusion without taking the time to consider that maybe it was in haste.  I take my position of weight seriously, and if someone asks my opinion I am very thorough in giving it to them in proper context so that they can assign appropriate value to it.  My only point trying to be made here is that you do the same so that readers will know just how much value they should give your opinion regarding the AT woofers. 

[Vapor Audio]

Rick makes great stuff, always has and I'm sure always will.  He's earned his customer base with thoughtful design and execution.  This is not in any way an attack on his excellent work.  Maybe I shouldn't have said anything because it is 'his' forum, but fact is I have nothing but positive to say about Selah.  What I said was quite innocuous, just pointing out what I viewed as a rush to judgement on his part.  I'm sure I've been guilty of the same in times past.  Yes dramatic conflict is quite entertaining, but I'm not inclined to go there. 

[Edited by ServerAdmin to remove inessential quote]

[Rick Craig]

I was simply making the point that your experience is quite limited with the AT drivers, which you'd have to admit it is.  That's it Rick, there's no need to go on the offensive. 

Per Skaaning knows exactly what he's doing by intentionally introducing the voice coil offset which everybody misinterpreted in the Klippel testing.  I know that everybody assumes that offset is immediately bad, but why do you think the AT's have class leading mid-band distortion?  It was a conscious decision by a savvy designer.  There are ways that the AT drivers outperform any 7" woofers available, there are also ways the Illuminators outperform any 7" woofers available.  There's nothing in the Klippel testing that says the AT drivers are inferior to the Illuminators or Satori, just a different set of decisions made in their design. 

People value your opinion Rick, just as they value mine.  The other 20 times I've seen you say that the AT woofers aren't in the same league as some others I've let it go, not said a thing.  This time I decided to speak up, knowing that you would likely accuse me of self-promoting bad form.  However my motive is in the interest of the reader, not my own.  I could have just as easily made the case that your attempts to malign the AT drivers was drawn from selfish motives, but I did not nor would I.  I chalk it up to simple oversight, drawing a conclusion without taking the time to consider that maybe it was in haste.  I take my position of weight seriously, and if someone asks my opinion I am very thorough in giving it to them in proper context so that they can assign appropriate value to it.  My only point trying to be made here is that you do the same so that readers will know just how much value they should give your opinion regarding the AT woofers.

You know Ryan I've been doing this quite a bit longer than you have and I knew about the offset a long time ago; in fact, Skaaning isn't the only one doing that. Yes you can see some of the design tradeoffs made but a few of the tests with a Klippel will give you insight as to how drivers of the same size compare in real performance. We all have our preferences regardless of motive. Since you use the AT drivers in your speakers you clearly have a vested interest.

 

[Rick Craig]

Also working on some Satori line arrays with Fountek ribbons...

[bernardo]

Rick-
Is this going to be a CBT or a standard line array design?

[Rick Craig]

Rick-
Is this going to be a CBT or a standard line array design?

Straight array but with shading like the CBT arrays.

[cazten]

Sounds super awesome, and super expensive lol. How do you like the fountek ribbons? Maybe might be hard comparison but it seem so many people toss all ribbons out after using the raal. But of course a raal array would just be terribly expensive. Whats does the shading do on a straight array?

I've been really intrigued by Arrays for HT use but the Price entry even DIY seems a lot.

[Rick Craig]

Sounds super awesome, and super expensive lol. How do you like the fountek ribbons? Maybe might be hard comparison but it seem so many people toss all ribbons out after using the raal. But of course a raal array would just be terribly expensive. Whats does the shading do on a straight array?

I've been really intrigued by Arrays for HT use but the Price entry even DIY seems a lot.

I've used Founteks previously in several different arrays. The RAAL ribbons are great but with ten ribbons per speakers the extra cost really becomes a factor. With an array the drivers are not pushed as hard so you have more options. The shading helps widen the vertical coverage and also makes the in-room response more uniform.