[Guy 13]

Thanks Guy13. Hope you enjoy your HD650s as much as I enjoy mine.

Hi dB Cooper and all Audio Circle members.
I don't enjoy my HD-650 s much as you do,
because I don't have yet my Bottlehead Crack.
It's been ordered and ship to an Audio Circle member
that will put it together for me for a less than...
Well, for a good price that will save me the trouble of putting it together.
In the mean time, I use my HD-650 with my Sony mini system, better than nothing and it will make me appreciate more my Crack when I get it.

Guy 13

[dB Cooper]

dalethorn makes some interesting points. When you listen to speakers, you aren't just listening to the speakers; you're listening to the room. Freedom from this issue is one of the 'pluses' of headphones. (As a side note, since the room contributes so much to the 'sound', I am frequently amazed by photos of megabuck systems where it looks like little or no attention was paid to the room acoustics. I wonder if it wouldn't sound better if the budget was allocated just a bit differently...)

I also agree with his comments on miking. The more complex the miking setup, the less 'natural' it seems to sound on cans... The detail often stands out more but can sound 'disembodied' somehow. (happens with speakers too now that I think of it...) A simply miked jazz ensemble (or symphony orchestra), recorded in a space with good acoustics, can sound glorious on headphones.

[FullRangeMan]

A simply miked jazz ensemble (or symphony orchestra), recorded in a space with good acoustics, can sound glorious on headphones.

A glorious performance to me means a giant soundstage be headphones or floorstanders spaekers, but no monopole speakers, as they are very disappointing;
In this item phones would be better than a OB set.

P.S.: If various phones offer a giant soundstage at affordable prices the future of Hi-End Audio may be Headphones and not loudspeakers...

[ajzepp]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
May I say that we are drifting from the original post.
My opinion, for the Audio Circle members that care to read it,
is that the headphones cannot achieve the same stereo image as speakers.
From cheap 20 USD to six units later with the Sennheiser HD-650,
none of them can have the same stereo image as any of my speakers.
Am I right or wrong?
You tell me with simple words,
since I don't have an IQ of 140.

Guy 13

Well said, Guy...and I agree. The difference with my opinion vs the opinions of others is that I don't really view one as better than the other in terms of speakers vs headphones. I see different applications for each and each has their strengths and weaknesses. I agree with what dbCooper said below in that there are some things headphones can do that speakers can't/don't, and vice versa. And I also agree with Dale, db, and Milford (Milford has made this point multiple times in the past) that taking the room out of the equation is a HUGE advantage for headphones.

When I purchased some Audeze LCD-2s a month or so ago, I was truly amazed at just how far I could see (hear) into the music. The T1s are nearly on par with this, and it's pretty amazing. I love being able to be in the car, laying in bed, sitting at work, etc, etc and have fantastic sound. With speakers obviously I don't have that advantage. With speakers, and especially with my Maggies, I can get just an absolutely HUGE sound stage and the impact of the music is completely different. I don't need surround sound, either...just two big mama Maggies and I'm good to go. But as incredibly detailed and transparent as my Maggies are, in terms of hearing DEEEEEP into the music, headphones take the cake.

Now, when I had a FULLY treated room at my old place....I'm talking over 25 traps and panels in an 11x16 room, I had stunning sound from my DeVore Fidelity Super 8s. I often use people who not only don't have much interest in audio, but who even think I'm nutso for spending as much money as I do on this hobby, to offer feedback on what they hear. My brother was a keen example, and even though he thought I was nuts, he still offered me his honest opinion. I took a little iPod nano via a LOD cable into a Mapletree Audio Line 2a-SE preamp, and fired up a few tracks. He was absolutely in awe of the sound, just as I was. Both before, and ESPECIALLY after, the room treatments were in play, the sound was average-to-poor. But in the treated room it was stunning. But again, would it sound that way if I was in the other room or in my bed while the stereo was playing? No, not even close. But when I whip out my trust headphones, I'm good no matter where I'm at or what I'm doing.

So with me, it's not a matter of one being "better" than the other....just different...and I have uses for both and have a blast doing it this way.

[ajzepp]

P.S.: If various phones offer a giant soundstage at affordable prices the future of Hi-End Audio may be Headphones and not loudspeakers...

It's funny cause I've been into home audio/video for about 20 years....and even though I always knew there was a whole other side to the hobby - headphones - and even had people tell me "you haven't heard this song until you've heard it on a great pair of headphones", I jsut never had any interest. The idea that headphones could have anything to offer me outside of my speakers was preposterous to me. But I think you're exactly right...headphones are on the rise and I could very easily see many high end audiophiles and music lovers such as myself making the transition from speakers. There are some pretty amazing products out there right now and its' only going to get better.

[ajzepp]

(As a side note, since the room contributes so much to the 'sound', I am frequently amazed by photos of megabuck systems where it looks like little or no attention was paid to the room acoustics. I wonder if it wouldn't sound better if the budget was allocated just a bit differently...)

I resisted the urge to treat the room because it just wasn't very "sexy", you know? It was far more exciting to think about a speaker upgrade or chanign out some gear, or whatever else. Really the only reason I ended up giving in was because GIK acoustics was so popular on here, and their headquarters is located about 20 min from my front door. So I ordered 20+ pieces one day, spend the afternoon installing them, and I knew I'd never downplay the impact of the room ever again. It was the most dramatic improvement I'd ever experienced in this hobby, on par (for me) with going from an average pair of speakers to a higher end pair. I was floored.

But yeah, I agree with you 100%...it's amazign that people can spend SO much money on incredible gear but fail to treat the room.

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
After reading most of the post about headphone soundstage
I decided to have a little headphone listening session.
I’ve used my Sennheiser HD-570 and HD-650 with my Sony SS receiver, since I don’t have yet my Bottlehead crack.
I want to share with you my findings, which are not new to me
and probably the same to you.
The stereo image (As I call it) is there, it’s the stage, the musicians or the singer that is mostly over my head or in front of my forehead.
Of course, you have different sounds from left to right, but most of the action is in the middle.
I am not talking about the quality of sound, because speakers and headphones are different in many ways and room acoustic is eliminated with the headphones, nothing new here.
The headphone drivers being on each side of your head is different from the speakers that are firing to you with a more or less toe in.
I am wondering if the headphone drivers would be at a 45 degrees angle, if it would improve the sound stage imaging, maybe yes, maybe not much, but one thing is sure, the headphones would be similar as having two mini bookshelves enclosures attached to your head, not practical and not marketable.
I might buy a binaural recording by Chesky and see how different it will be, unless an Audio Circle member has tried that already and want to share with us his findings.
Well that’s it, not much new for many of you, but just want to share and see if you agree or not or can add something I don’t already know.
Forgot to add the following:
Of course recording can improve or degrade stereo imaging,
how they record and mix and how many microphones are used...

Guy 13

[dB Cooper]

I am not talking about the quality of sound, because speakers and headphones are different in many ways and room acoustic is eliminated with the headphones, nothing new here.
The headphone drivers being on each side of your head is different from the speakers that are firing to you with a more or less toe in.

Both Canz3D and the FHX processor add-on for Fidelia allow you to set the angle of the "virtual" speakers. This is an example of something easier to do in the digital domain than analog.

I am wondering if the headphone drivers would be at a 45 degrees angle, if it would improve the sound stage imaging, maybe yes, maybe not much, but one thing is sure, the headphones would be similar as having two mini bookshelves enclosures attached to your head, not practical and not marketable.

This has actually been tried; it was called the AKG K1000. It was legendary for being big, ugly, clunky, and very hard to drive. The newer Sennheiser models have a more practical implementation of the angled-driver concept although I can't say I hear much of a difference attributable to this between my angled-driver 555s and my straight-firing 650s.

I might buy a binaural recording by Chesky and see how different it will be, unless an Audio Circle member has tried that already and want to share with us his findings.

I have this one, which they market as "binaural plus", meaning they claim it sounds good on headphones  or (unlike most binaural recordings) speakers too. It does sound good (although I think "headphone-only"-binaural sounds better.)

[Quiet Earth]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
After reading most of the post about headphone soundstage
I decided to have a little headphone listening session.
I’ve used my Sennheiser HD-570 and HD-650 with my Sony SS receiver, since I don’t have yet my Bottlehead crack.
I want to share with you my findings, which are not new to me
and probably the same to you.
The stereo image (As I call it) is there, it’s the stage, the musicians or the singer that is mostly over my head or in front of my forehead.
Of course, you have different sounds from left to right, but most of the action is in the middle.
I am not talking about the quality of sound, because speakers and headphones are different in many ways and room acoustic is eliminated with the headphones, nothing new here.
The headphone drivers being on each side of your head is different from the speakers that are firing to you with a more or less toe in.
I am wondering if the headphone drivers would be at a 45 degrees angle, if it would improve the sound stage imaging, maybe yes, maybe not much, but one thing is sure, the headphones would be similar as having two mini bookshelves enclosures attached to your head, not practical and not marketable.
I might buy a binaural recording by Chesky and see how different it will be, unless an Audio Circle member has tried that already and want to share with us his findings.
Well that’s it, not much new for many of you, but just want to share and see if you agree or not or can add something I don’t already know.
Forgot to add the following:
Of course recording can improve or degrade stereo imaging,
how they record and mix and how many microphones are used...

Guy 13

Great post Guy. Clear and to the point,,, and on topic too. 

[Guy 13]

Great post Guy. Clear and to the point,,, and on topic too. 

Hi Quiet Earth and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks QuietEarth.
I am glad that someone appreciate and like what I wrote.
I've tried to make it simple as in :
Audio should be simple.
And I tried not to drift off topic, something that happen often...

Guy 13
I am having fun with all those little funny icons.
Small things, amuse small minds.

[Quiet Earth]

You're freaking out over nothing. This is a discussion about headphone soundstage verses speaker soundstage, and that is all it is ( or should be, or intended to be).

You are the one making a mountain over a molehill dale. You need to let it go. Nobody here is dissing headphones because they present the music differently. It's all in your mind.

Chill.

[Diamond Dog]

I agree with Quiet Earth. Also with the views expressed by ajzepp and Guy 13. I have a decent headphone rig here and I didn't spend that kind of money on that stuff because I hate headphones. That being said, I prefer listening to music via my speakers for reasons others have covered .

Am I throwing my T1s or my 600's out the window?  No, of course not. They're fine cans and they have a place in my system.

Am I spouting heresy by saying I agree with the OP and others who find speakers soundstage better than headphones? Apparently, in the minds of some, yes.

Do I care about that? No. Frankly, the most negative thing I've read in this thread so far is the relentless pursuit of an agenda by one guy at the expense of everyone else contributing. It's OK if we don't all share the same opinion so spare us the evangelism.

 And we'll post in whatever threads we bloody well please.

D.D.

 

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
The relatively new Audio Circle member is creating lots of waves with this (Simple headphone soundstage) topic, don’t you think so?
We old Audio Circle timers know that we are here to discuss exchange, learn and have fun; this discussion (Attack) is not fun anymore.
Let’s ignore those comments coming from a frustrated and jumpy new Audio Circle members.
By responding to his comments, it’s like putting oil on the fire, it only get worst.

Guy 13

[Quiet Earth]

You've turned my critique into a personal attack. YOU NEED to let it go, now.

Well, let me try again, since I think that you are doing most of the attacking and rule making on this thread.

Some of us are brave enough (yes brave enough!) to admit that we can't hear a soundstage the way it is so commonly raved about in many headphone internet circles. We accept that what we hear is different than what we hear from a pair of speakers in a room, and that it ok with us. It is probably as it should be. It is not a deal breaker for most of us, and a few people have actually made suggestions for improving soundstage if soundstage is all that you are currently focused on.

For some reason this free exchange of information and personal experience is driving you nuts. You don't want anyone to say anything negative at all about headphones. Even if a negative comment is kept into perspective and only for the sake of discussion. We're not here to steal your headphone kingdom. We are only here to talk about headphones and try to get a better understanding of what other people are experiencing so we can put our experience into a bigger picture. That means we need to hear from everyone. Not just you.

That's what a forum is all about Charlie Brown.

[Quiet Earth]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
The relatively new Audio Circle member is creating lots of waves with this (Simple headphone soundstage) topic, don’t you think so?
We old Audio Circle timers know that we are here to discuss exchange, learn and have fun; this discussion (Attack) is not fun anymore.
Let’s ignore those comments coming from a frustrated and jumpy new Audio Circle members.
By responding to his comments, it’s like putting oil on the fire, it only get worst.

Guy 13

You're right. I think we posted about the same time. I wish I would have said what you said.

Good call and no hard feelings.

[parr3n1]

I gave up on 2 channel speakers for family reasons. Peace is all important
for without it its hard to enjoy music. As a result I went to headphones and
at first I was comparing to  my speakers and found that they were never going
to compare so I just started listening. What I found was the same thing that
happened with speakers, I started noticing the nuances of headphones and as
time marches on my enjoyment is multiplying. Different music produces different
experiences for me, and so on. It is hard to find a system that disappears and allows
you to experience the music for what it is and I guess that is what this journey is
all about. Thanks

[Guy 13]

You're right. I think we posted about the same time. I wish I would have said what you said.

Good call and no hard feelings.

 

Guy 13

[Guy 13]

Well, let me try again, since I think that you are doing most of the attacking and rule making on this thread.

Some of us are brave enough (yes brave enough!) to admit that we can't hear a soundstage the way it is so commonly raved about in many headphone internet circles. We accept that what we hear is different than what we hear from a pair of speakers in a room, and that it ok with us. It is probably as it should be. It is not a deal breaker for most of us, and a few people have actually made suggestions for improving soundstage if soundstage is all that you are currently focused on.

For some reason this free exchange of information and personal experience is driving you nuts. You don't want anyone to say anything negative at all about headphones. Even if a negative comment is kept into perspective and only for the sake of discussion. We're not here to steal your headphone kingdom. We are only here to talk about headphones and try to get a better understanding of what other people are experiencing so we can put our experience into a bigger picture. That means we need to hear from everyone. Not just you.

That's what a forum is all about Charlie Brown.

 

Guy 13.
(I like the Charlie Brown thing... )

[ajzepp]

I agree with Quiet Earth. Also with the views expressed by ajzepp and Guy 13.

What?? We agree about something?? One of us must not be feeling well 

[ajzepp]

My nephew says to me invent something,I have finally done it,stereo is again supreme
with my invention

Oh, what a surprise....George has once again decided to bring up his headphone amp that he sells...

I sent a PM to two people a few days ago when this thread started getting going to alert them to the fact that this is the only reason George graces us with his presence...he has a headphone amp that he peddles and he attempts to take advantage of an established forum here at Audio Circle for free word of mouth advertising. I told these two people it would only be a matter of time until he brought it up in this thread, just like he does in EVERY other headphone related thread, and here you have evidence of it once again. In my opinion it's disrespectful to those of us who post here simply because of a love of headphones and with no profit motive or agenda.

George has proved time and time and time again that he has an ulterior motive for being here, and I wish that others would support me in requesting his posting privileges be suspended with regard to the Headphone Circle.