[FullRangeMan]

I am greatly dumbfound by the way many headphone fans described the 'soundstage' they are hearing through their headphones.

Barry,
Iam in the same corner than you, Iam waiting to invest in a fullrange speaker or in the HD800/tube amp, but impossible so far to find a HD800 to listen afew minutes, Seenheiser are ignore me.
I already contact the general manager and flat no way to a demo HD800.

Certainly a good phones had a better image than a multiway loudspeaker, but the phones soundstage seems smaller than a floor standing speaker, unless the HD800 reports are true.

The HD800 have the bigger soundstage til today, more info on this massive test:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/634201/battle-of-the-flagships-58-headphones-compared-update-audeze-lcd-2-revision-2-6-4-13
If you want a big soundstage I suggest the HD800;
Good Luck

[ajzepp]

In the previous soundstage thread, this is what I learned :

That's all I meant to say.

Oh okay, yeah I would definitely say that's my experience, as well. For me I've found that I enjoy using them in different ways and at different times. Sometimes I dont' feel like sitting in the sweet spot on the couch to enjoy music, and the idea of laying down in bed with some headphones is a really great alternative.

But while I do know people who prefer headphones over speakers, I dont know many who would say that headphones present music in the same manner.

[G Georgopoulos]

BTW, I was talking to Jan Meier about the two new lines of headphones he's decided to carry, so I asked him to comment on the crossfeed vs crosstalk thing. His response is below...

With crosstalk part of the left channel signal is directly fed into the
right channel.

With crossfeed part of the left channel is delayed (!) and next fed into
the right channel.

With crosstalk the high frequencies are normally stronger "crossed" then
lower frequencies, due to capacitive coupling.

With crossfeed the lower frequencies are stronger "crossed". The
shadowing effect of the head is stronger for high frequencies.

The major differences between crosstalk and crossfeed is this time delay
as well as the different frequency curves.

Stereo as listened to by headphones is not natural stereo. The high
channel separation achieved by headphones is not heard in real life.

Crossfeed electronically simulates parts of the natural hearing process.

The appreciation of crossfeed is a very personal one. Around one third
of my customers never use, one third only with strong panned recordings,
and one third can't do without.

There is no good nor wrong. Just different.

Cheers

Jan

Crossfeed is a tone filter with a channel mixer,loudspeaker channel separation is
the same as pure headphone separation... 

Crossfeed as tone filter is ok,but not the best,any other filter can compete with
crossfeed and is that ok too...

Hope that helps...

ps: ajzepp and dbcooper use an equaliser...

[dB Cooper]

Whatever

[ajzepp]

lol

[yo2tup]

I had/have the same experience as you.  I wanted the biggest soundstage out of headphones, so I purchased the Senn HD-800 and a nice Woo Audio amp to go with.  I used it a while, broke everything in properly, but the "soundstage" the HD-800's are supposedly known for never appeared for me, I didn't understand...still don't.    Came to the conclusion, that headphones aren't for me and quickly sold both items...that was a couple years ago. 

[yo2tup]

Headphones have the best sound because it's right off the amp - no room smearing of highs, no room smearing of bass, etc. The loudspeaker experience isn't so much about audio anyway, it's about getting the sonic equivalent of a jacuzzi experience. Let those who want to experience the 'feel' of music enjoy what they like - who cares anyway? The world is passing those people by.

My comments are referring to the topic at hand which is "headphone soundstage."  Not so much a loudspeaker vs. headphone opinion pissing contest.

[PDR]

Headphones have the best sound because it's right off the amp - no room smearing of highs, no room smearing of bass, etc. The loudspeaker experience isn't so much about audio anyway, it's about getting the sonic equivalent of a jacuzzi experience. Let those who want to experience the 'feel' of music enjoy what they like - who cares anyway? The world is passing those people by.

Dammit......it came right out my nose.....

[dB Cooper]

Well, if we can get back to being Nice, it is hard to discuss the original topic without a frame of reference, the obvious one being the sound of speakers in a room, especially since traditionally, most recordings have been produced with that type of listening setup in mind. Of course, soundstage from speakers varies dramatically depending on many variables, a problem headphones are free from. I think this may be dalethorn's point.

I have no problem with yo2tup expressing a contrary opinion. Headphone "soundstage" is different than that of speakers. I have heard the HD800 along with many others over the years; the HD800, with its angled drivers, has acquired a "rep" for a "huge soundstage", but to my ears, "soundstage" has much more to do with the properties of the recorded material than anything else. My HD55s have angled drivers too; my HD650s do not. I don't hear a big difference in "soundstage" between them. Koss made "4-channel" headphones during that era. They tanked in the marketplace, partly because they simply didn't work. A good set of "cans" will far exceed the definition of all but the most elite of speakers, but the perspective is an acquired taste for some. Like anything, we picks our poison...

Crossfeed, despite what G G implies, is not simply applying EQ and blending channels. Crossfeed effects are frequency dependent and designed to simulate the ways in which, with speakers, each ear hears both speakers, but in different ways. The frequency and phase relationships are known and can be simulated more easily in the digital domain than in the analog domain. A little googling and reviewing sites like the Canz3D would provide better descriptions than I can.

[rodge827]

iFi has a holographic 3D expanding feature in the iCan, which has been reviewed as a very good can amp, but is limited to due to it's wattage output. It has been noted that the effect varies due to the can used.  YMMV

http://ifi-audio.com/en/iCAN.html

Freds Headphone Amplifiers makes a cross feed device...cheep too.

http://fredsamplifiers.com.au/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=24&zenid=79b52829d860369a53038f82713dec34

For the last few months I have been looking into a head system. Like Milford I lost my listening room from Sandy and we have had family move in which took up the other bedrooms.

Good thread, thanks gents. 

Chris 

[Freo-1]

Ever since I discovered Stax headphones, my whole outlook on headphones changed for the better.  The playback from a Stax SRM 7ii amp and SR 507 cans just seem to outperform any set of speakers I've ever heard.  Take any recording you think you know, listen to it through the Stax setup, and be prepared to be amazed and humbled. 

I'm surprised there isn't more research into binaural playback.  With today's DSP, it would seem that one could take the audio in the digital domain, apply a binaural algorithm to the music, and then convert to analog.  That would address the sound staging issue (assuming it worked correctly  ).

[Freo-1]

There are many sources of outstanding recordings that take headphones into account. HD Tracks is just one of many.

I don't doubt that.  The point here is that it would be good to have a "binaural" option available on DAC processors.  That way, all one's music library would be able to better support headphone playback.

[dB Cooper]

No DSP is perfect. That goes for cross feed too. It can help, but it is not perfect. Recordings that have an original binaural mix are the way to go. As much listening as is done with headphones today, perhaps this is a timely idea.

[TF1216]

The really cool thing about headphones is that their measured performance is repeatable on everyone's head.  It's that fact that leads way to DTS Headphone:X as an example. 

It is possible to create a transfer function for a headphone to control sounds, effects, and dimension for the listener.  With some ingenuity and time (lots of it) recordings can be manipulated using DSP for a particular headphone and recording to create a better soundstage. 

[FullRangeMan]

ps: ajzepp and dbcooper use an equaliser...

Hard to believe it, it is a joke??

[FullRangeMan]

I had/have the same experience as you.  I wanted the biggest soundstage out of headphones, so I purchased the Senn HD-800 and a nice Woo Audio amp to go with.  I used it a while, broke everything in properly, but the "soundstage" the HD-800's are supposedly known for never appeared for me, I didn't understand...still don't.    Came to the conclusion, that headphones aren't for me and quickly sold both items...that was a couple years ago.

Wow incredrible, too bad.

[ajzepp]

Hard to believe it, it is a joke??

No idea...absolutely no interest in EQing, though...and that has nothing to do with crossfeed anyway. 

[dB Cooper]

Wow incredrible, too bad.

I would be curious to know what other headphone listening experience yo2tup has had- perhaps the fault is not with the HD800 per se, but maybe he is simply one of those who does not find the headphone "presentation" convincing- which is fine. You can find "likers" and "dislikers" for planars, single driver systems, open baffles, SET amps, headphones, and any other branch of the audio hobby you care to name. They all have imperfections and shortcomings, which are experienced by different listeners in different ways. What makes Component A sound better than Component B to Listener 1 and the exact opposite to Listener 2- well, that's just how it is, and that goes for recordings too- one consumer review described the Sennheiser 650 as having a "Three-lump soundstage". I am listening to the Beethoven Overture #72 on mine right now and the soundstage sounds damn good… to me.

To get back from my pontificating to something resembling the original topic, the stereo image, or "soundstage" if you prefer, is not like speakers (although well-done crossfeed narrows the gap). These departures from reality bother some quite a bit. I suspect that they just experience it differently. For me the detail and definition make it worthwhile. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot… listen whatever way floats your boat. (Damn, the drums in this Britten "Sinfonia da Requiem" sound awesome on these 650's…)

[dB Cooper]

It seems a little north of strictly neutral in the highs to me, but nowhere near the K701 or the Beyer T90's I've listened to. After being dogged for so many years by so many listeners about the so called "veil", I suppose it's understandable they voiced it that way. That doesn't relate to the sound staging aspect however. Ain't spending $1.5K for cans anyhoo, so unless the Prize Patrol shows up...

[ajzepp]

A perfect example of how little difference 'crossfeed' makes compared to recordings:

Seems like there are many definitions of crossfeed being discussed. The Meier circuit is designed to be very subtle, which is a big reason why I enjoy it. I notice it more when I disengage it after having it in play for a length of time.

In terms of soundstage, though, I agree the recording can make a significant difference.