Headphone soundstage?

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G Georgopoulos

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Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #60 on: 14 Nov 2013, 05:02 am »
What do you call the stereo presentation? It could be argued that the instruments and voice
on a stereo recording is a representation of where the instruments are in a live performance.

But you cant replicate stereo with headphones as is with loudspeakers,the best bet is mono
which appears at the center of your head,this could be called soundstage minus sound effects of stereo...

parr3n1

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Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #61 on: 14 Nov 2013, 05:08 am »
I don't understand your logic. You have a two channel system with cans
and I grant you that they don't mimic speakers but you still have left right and
center. With mono how would you have a center image without sound from two channels?

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #62 on: 14 Nov 2013, 05:19 am »
With mono how would you have a center image without sound from two channels?

It's easy, there is only a center image with mono, .... :lol:

dB Cooper

Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #63 on: 14 Nov 2013, 01:57 pm »
+1 on dale's previous post

"Everybody's out of step but Johnny"

parr3n1

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Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #64 on: 14 Nov 2013, 02:38 pm »
Dalethorn, well said and what you say makes perfect sense. Now, has this thread been
about listening to mono recordings or does the stereo sound effect present and artificial
sound stage?

ajzepp

Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #65 on: 14 Nov 2013, 09:18 pm »
+1 on dale's previous post

"Everybody's out of step but Johnny"

*spits iced tea onto keyboard*

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #66 on: 15 Nov 2013, 12:09 am »

Now as to stereo being artificial, just set a few stereo tracks to mono if your system allows that, and observe how some instruments and voices can virtually disappear due to phase cancellation. You may need to test a variety of music. The principle is clear I think - whatever the mics capture, you don't want your system to lose. If the mastering engineers 'disappear' something, fine, but you don't want your system to lose information unless you do it on purpose.

Dalethorn what are you on about...nothing is lost with mono...I use a mixer to mix stereo
to mono and all music information is mixed nothing is lost...i dont know where you got that
information or what kind of hardware you used to come to that conclusion...

nothing is lost mate... :green:

dB Cooper

Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #67 on: 15 Nov 2013, 01:43 am »
That's like saying nothing is lost watching a color program on a black and white TV set. I can tell you that when I listen to stereo source material in mono, something is lost- the stereo information or image or soundstage or whatever the f*** you want to call it. Out of phase information that in part forms the stereo image/soundstage cancels out when the channels are combined. You may not care about it, you may even prefer the mono- to each his own- but something is lost.

I am interested in the topic at hand, which as I understand it, is how we hear/experience the phenomenon of "sound staging" or "imaging" with stereo headphones (a useful point of reference being the same phenomena through speakers.) "Staging" by definition implies more than one channel; that's what drove the development of stereo. Mono through headphones sounds like it is coming from a point, not a "stage". No prob if that is what you like; but 99.97% of people are going to want to listen to stereo material in stereo, so  the topic of mono seems like it may be a tangent at best.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #68 on: 15 Nov 2013, 02:42 am »
That's like saying nothing is lost watching a color program on a black and white TV set. I can tell you that when I listen to stereo source material in mono, something is lost- the stereo information or image or soundstage or whatever the f*** you want to call it. Out of phase information that in part forms the stereo image/soundstage cancels out when the channels are combined. You may not care about it, you may even prefer the mono- to each his own- but something is lost.



The only thing that's lost is stereo...mixing doesnt lose music signal even an out of phase... :lol:
you guys are funny! :lol:

parr3n1

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Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #69 on: 15 Nov 2013, 02:55 am »
db    well said
+1

Guy 13

Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #70 on: 15 Nov 2013, 03:04 am »
Hi db Cooper and all Audio Circle members.
db keep posting, what you post makes lots of sense.
Can't say the same for some Audio Circle members. :oops:

Guy 13

ajzepp

Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #71 on: 15 Nov 2013, 03:07 am »
That's like saying nothing is lost watching a color program on a black and white TV set. I can tell you that when I listen to stereo source material in mono, something is lost- the stereo information or image or soundstage or whatever the f*** you want to call it. Out of phase information that in part forms the stereo image/soundstage cancels out when the channels are combined. You may not care about it, you may even prefer the mono- to each his own- but something is lost.

I am interested in the topic at hand, which as I understand it, is how we hear/experience the phenomenon of "sound staging" or "imaging" with stereo headphones (a useful point of reference being the same phenomena through speakers.) "Staging" by definition implies more than one channel; that's what drove the development of stereo. Mono through headphones sounds like it is coming from a point, not a "stage". No prob if that is what you like; but 99.97% of people are going to want to listen to stereo material in stereo, so  the topic of mono seems like it may be a tangent at best.

+7

ajzepp

Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #72 on: 15 Nov 2013, 03:08 am »
Hi db Cooperand all Audio Circle members.
db keep posting, what you post makes lots of sense.
Can't say the same for some Audio Circle members. :oops:

Guy 13

+1

dB Cooper

Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #73 on: 15 Nov 2013, 03:48 am »
"Troll (Internet)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about internet slang. For other uses, see Troll (disambiguation).

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

dB Cooper

Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #74 on: 15 Nov 2013, 03:49 am »
Hi db Cooper and all Audio Circle members.
db keep posting, what you post makes lots of sense.
Can't say the same for some Audio Circle members. :oops:

Guy 13

Thanks Guy13. Hope you enjoy your HD650s as much as I enjoy mine.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #75 on: 15 Nov 2013, 04:23 am »
You're misinforming here - it's true that you can use a mixing program to tweak the mix so nothing is lost, but if you use an amp that has a stereo/mono switch and flip to mono, lots will be lost due to phase cancelation.

The same happens with stereo acoustically with out of phase signals...

Guy 13

Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #76 on: 15 Nov 2013, 09:30 am »
Hi all Audio Circle members.
May I say that we are drifting from the original post.
My opinion, for the Audio Circle members that care to read it,
is that the headphones cannot achieve the same stereo image as speakers.
From cheap 20 USD to six units later with the Sennheiser HD-650,
none of them can have the same stereo image as any of my speakers.
Am I right or wrong?
You tell me with simple words,
since I don't have an IQ of 140. :cry:

Guy 13   

SteveFord

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Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #77 on: 15 Nov 2013, 10:42 am »
Guy13,
You are correct.

Guy 13

Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #78 on: 15 Nov 2013, 11:23 am »
Guy13,
You are correct.
`

Thanks !

dB Cooper

Re: Headphone soundstage?
« Reply #79 on: 15 Nov 2013, 11:42 am »
Headphones indeed do not have the same "stereo image" or "sound stage" as speakers (although cross feed helps IMHO) but they exceed the speaker experience in some ways. It isn't that they cannot provide the experience (to repeat my earlier point, good binaural is amazing) but the problem lies in the fact that almost all recordings are mixed and mastered for loudspeakers.

Just my two cents