Terrible hum after adding dedicated lines, tried everything any help appreciated

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andyr

Well, I thought it was kind of weird that you made that decision in a thread titled "terrible hum after adding dedicated lines". You know, like I get hum with the complexity of three AC circuits so I will add five more and make it better.  :wink:

I am probably the only one on Audio Circle who thinks less is more when it comes to dedicated AC lines.

About 10 years ago, I put two dedicated 15 amp lines in my listening room before I moved in. Back in those days I believed everything I read on the internet, so I knew that I had to have at least two lines. One for analog and one for digital. Or, one for source and one for power. No matter how much I tried I could only get good clean sound using one single line. Everything plugged into the same line sounded better and quieter. It's still what works best for me, even though the general internet wisdom proves otherwise. Maybe my situation is unusual. Maybe my system is too modest.

Wayner mentioned simplifying what we say and how we say it if this is to be a useful teaching thread. I say add up the amperage that you need for your audio system, and then provide a single dedicated line of that current capacity for the entire system. It all gets connected together anyway, so why not plug it into one single dedicated line?

Too easy?

Yes easy, QE ... but my experience on going from 1 dedicated circuit to 2 (with power amps on another circuit) is diametrically opposed to yours.  :)

Regards,

Andy

Speedskater

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I am probably the only one on Audio Circle who thinks less is more when it comes to dedicated AC lines.
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Wayner mentioned simplifying what we say and how we say it if this is to be a useful teaching thread. I say add up the amperage that you need for your audio system, and then provide a single dedicated line of that current capacity for the entire system. It all gets connected together anyway, so why not plug it into one single dedicated line?
Too easy?

No you're not!
Everything, save for big power amplifiers and video projectors should all be on one circuit.
Exceptions might be made if you have equipment in widely separated areas.

Folsom

mcallister you might be having the same problem as doctorcilantro but minus the added noise from a bad dishwasher.

It's actually more an issue with the way some audio equipment is made, than anything else.
« Last Edit: 1 Nov 2013, 05:35 am by Salis Audio »

andyr

Andy you might be having the same problem as doctorcilantro but minus the added noise from a bad dishwasher.

It's actually more an issue with the way some audio equipment is made, than anything else.

I don't have a "problem", SA?  :o  (That I'm aware of.)


Regards,

Andy

Folsom


mcallister

Thanks for the heads up SA, I've been following that thread.

jea48

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mcallister,

I have tried to follow your thread and have a few questions.

How many 15 or 20 amp 120V branch circuits are used to feed the audio system? (Not counting the two 30 amp 120V branch circuits for the subs.)

If I understand correctly each active danley speaker has it's own power amp and thus each is powered by a 120V cord and plug. Is that correct.
All plugged into and fed from one branch circuit? Or fed from several?

Here are just a few Links for you to read.

http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2005/whitlock/whitlock_pnw05.pdf

http://www.exactpower.com/elite/assets/pdfs/theTRUTH.pdf

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/basics.html

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/an/an004.pdf

 

jea48

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Guys,

Here is an interesting thread posted on AA a few years ago regarding the importance of earth ground for a home audio system.
Note the equipment designer/manufactures thoughts on the subject.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/15/156311.html

Food for thought, a Stealth Bomber has probably the most sophisticated electronics known to man and there is not any earth connection.

Ground - A path for current flow.
By, Henry Ott
Bell Laboratories
http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/ground.pdf

Folsom

Can you summerize it some? That old thread is endless.

The basic idea is to shorten your equipment's path for communicating ("equapotential") instead of picking up noise and ground potential changes by commincating through the sub/breaker panel. Once that starts you got problems with multiple paths and influences.

andyr


The basic idea is to shorten your equipment's path for communicating ("equapotential") instead of picking up noise and ground potential changes by commincating through the sub/breaker panel. Once that starts you got problems with multiple paths and influences.


Then again, if you stick rigidly to the concept that:
* mains earth is connected to the case of each component, to ground it (for safety), and
* signal earth never touches the case

... you do not get "ground potential changes communicated through the sub/breaker panel".

This needs to be for every component in your system.


Regards,

Andy

jea48

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Then again, if you stick rigidly to the concept that:
* mains earth is connected to the case of each component, to ground it (for safety), and
* signal earth never touches the case

... you do not get "ground potential changes communicated through the sub/breaker panel".

This needs to be for every component in your system.


Regards,

Andy

Good idea if all audio equipment that is designed to be connected together by ICs was designed and built that way.

A better way though would be to build the equipment with double insulated AC power wiring and eliminate the need for a safety equipment ground. Cost more? Yes a little.
Does it lessen the chance of a ground loop hum problem? Most definitely.
Jim

Folsom

What I said covers that Andy, except turntables may not work right , and balanced cables like ground.

andyr


What I said covers that Andy, except turntables may not work right , and balanced cables like ground.


You've confused me there, SA as:
1.  The mains power on a TT goes to the motor.  There is no connection between the cartridge wires and the motor wires (at least, in my LP12, anyway!  :) )  So mains ground doesn't come into it.

2.  You said "Balanced cables like ground" - but surely signal ground provides this?  (You don't have to use chassis ground?)


Regards,

Andy

andyr

Good idea if all audio equipment that is designed to be connected together by ICs was designed and built that way.

Jim

True, but in my system it all is.  :wink:

Andy

jea48

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Can you summerize it some? That old thread is endless.

LOL,  it takes a while to read and navigate through the AA format.
This may be a little easier.
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=amp&m=156311

Basically, the safety equipment ground does more harm than good for the sound of audio equipment.

The safety equipment grounding conductor.
The purpose is to supply a low resistive path/s for ground fault current to return to the source via way of the main service neutral conductor.

 Note. Current is non-discriminating. It will take any path available back to the source. It does seem to like the least resistive path though. But it is not particular.

How the equipment grounding circuit works.
When a ground fault condition exists the branch circuit breaker sees the fault current as part of the connected circuit load. If the ground fault condition is of a low resistance, current flow will be higher which again the breaker just sees as circuit load. If the ground fault current + connected load exceeds the breaker handle ampere rating the breaker will trip open, hopefully. If the ground fault condition is a dead short, for a typical 20 amp breaker the inrush current could rise as high as 150 amps before the breaker hopefully trips open. So much for using the ground of ICs for an equipment ground when ground cheaters are used.

 Earth connection has nothing to do with process.
Jim
 

DaveC113

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You've confused me there, SA as:
1.  The mains power on a TT goes to the motor.  There is no connection between the cartridge wires and the motor wires (at least, in my LP12, anyway!  :) )  So mains ground doesn't come into it.

2.  You said "Balanced cables like ground" - but surely signal ground provides this?  (You don't have to use chassis ground?)


Regards,

Andy

Signal and chassis grounds are directly connected in a lot of equipment, so there is no difference... see figure 1a

http://www.rane.com/note110.html

jea48

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Signal and chassis grounds are directly connected in a lot of equipment, so there is no difference... see figure 1a

http://www.rane.com/note110.html
And equipment that has the signal ground directly connected to the equipment ground chassis ground sometimes is the cause of ground loops and hum.

Take a look at the back power IEC inlet of the OPs Integra DHC 80.2.
http://integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?class=Preamplifier&m=DHC-80.2&p=i
 No equipment ground pin. The equipment is built using double insulated AC power wiring. Only the signal ground is connected to the chassis.

Can the Integra DHC 80.2 pass through a ground loop from an offending piece of equipment like an active speaker through the common signal ground of the pre/pro to another or other active speakers connected to the pre/pro? You bet if the amp uses an equipment ground and the signal ground is connected directly to the chassis. All that is needed is a difference of potential, voltage, to exist from one common equipment ground/signal chassis ground of one amp to the chassis ground/s of the another amp/s and current will flow back to the AC source causing the 60Hz hum.

Problem I have with the OPs hum is the system worked fine in the new house before he added the new branch circuits. He said he hooked the system back up the old way and still had the hum. He had to change something else....
Maybe the OP will check his thread and answer my questions to him in a previous post.   

DaveC113

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Yeah, I wonder what the problem was?

With double insulated equipment with no ground, the signal ground is likely directly coupled to earth ground through the ICs ground wire and the component it is connected to. It would be the same as lifting ground using a cheater plug in a grounded component, but safer. So you eliminate the possibility of a ground loop if you connect the insulated component to another receptacle with a different ground potential vs the rest of your equipment. It might be better for sound quality to eliminate the components ground being connected via the ground wire in the PCs, but otoh the reduction in resistance between ground planes can make for less noise.

Folsom

Turntables have to be connected to ground, not from the motor. You don't want big differences in potential in this situation, not with this sensitivity. Depending on what the ground is connected to it may or may not work best given certain situations.

Balanced is always connected to chassis as far as I am aware. Also having it lifted causes ground loops. Perhaps if you made your own stuff and circuit ground it at the right place you would not have it going chassis. I don't see the point though, balanced don't have ground loops and you can keep the safety ground for safety!

andyr


Turntables have to be connected to ground, not from the motor. You don't want big differences in potential in this situation, not with this sensitivity.


Correct.  My TT's aluminium chassis is connected to mains earth.  So is the (separate) aluminium plate which the motor is bolted to.  But the 4 signal wires from the cartridge don't touch either of these pieces of metal.  :wink:


Regards,

Andy