[mlundy57]

My finishing questions were hijacking Todd's thread so I'm starting a new thread for them.

Thanks Hank. I know what you mean about stain. I am not pleased with the way the stain came out on the X-LS and X-CS Encores. I couldn't get a smooth even color and kept getting bleed over and the resulting dark streaks on adjacent panels. I have never tried wood dye. I have two recipes for Danish oil, one to make the oil with less streaking than straight out of the can and one to make a wiping oil. I haven't tried either one yet.

Here are some questions for the group:

How can I keep from getting the edges too dark, especially when they have been rounded over?

Should I completely finish one side (put all the coats on I intend to) before moving to another side or should I put one coat on all sides before putting a second coat on any  sides?

After I have started applying the finish, how do I protect a side with finish on it while working on another side?

Mike

[Hank]

Are you using a Watco oil that is colored (I don't whether they use a stain or a dye)?  I wouldn't think rounded over edges would necessarily get darker than the sides - I haven't seen that effect.
Regarding protection, lay a finished side down on a soft cotton towel - should work.

[Greg D]

How can I keep from getting the edges too dark, especially when they have been rounded over?

Should I completely finish one side (put all the coats on I intend to) before moving to another side or should I put one coat on all sides before putting a second coat on any  sides?

After I have started applying the finish, how do I protect a side with finish on it while working on another side?

Mike

I have for years avoided stain because of difficulties getting the color to come out even.  But I'm going to give it a go with my current project.

Wiping the wood down with mineral spirits will give you some idea of how the wood will absorb the stain and finish.  If you find some area - end grain in particular - that soaks it up a lot then you know those areas are going to do that with the stain.  Sanding them to 220 (or 320) grit when the rest of the piece is sanded to 150 (or 220) might help.

From what I have heard a conditioner of some sort is usually necessary to get even color.  One suggestion was to wet the piece with mineral spirits, wipe off the excess, and then immediately apply the (oil based) stain.  The idea is that the mineral spirits "fills up" the thirsty areas.

I am going to try some stain conditioner that is stocked at Lowes.  I don't recall the brand.

If I were looking for the best chances of getting the best results I would use the products and advice from Charles Neil:  http://www.cn-woodworking.com/  I would probably start by buying one of his DVDs on finishing.

My guess is that any conditioner will be much better than no conditioner.  I suspect Charles got into producing his wood conditioner because he found the available products unsatisfactory in some way.

The other thing to keep in mind is that people who turn out projects with great finishes usually test things out on scraps from the build to fine-tune the procedure before doing the project.  If you practice on scraps you will probably get better results than if you "learn" on your project.

[Mark Korda]

Hi Mike, that towel idea is pretty good. Every once and a while I would lift it up off the towel, see if any stain got on or seeped around the edge where the other stained finish is and have a rag soaked with paint thinner to wipe down the already stained side if any seeps around. Stain is so thin that tape rarely works,even the Frog tape. Another way to stain evenly is to start from the bottom with your brush or roller and work your way up with your speaker or what ever in the verticle position, that way you won't have any drip marks and have a thinner soaked rag to chase or rub down  your work. You can diminish the hue or tone of the stain by rubbing it down with the thinner or add more stain if it needs to be darker. Don't rush to put on Poly, the stain should dry over night.....take care....Mark K.

[mlundy57]

Thanks folks.

The problem I have with edges and rounded over ones especially is that the finish overlaps from the two adjacent sides resulting in an area that gets twice as many coats as the rest of the sides. This overlapped area then appears as a dark band running the length of the edge.

Right now I am not using Danish oil at all. I am using a dewaxed garnet shellack which I made up into a 2 pound cut. I did not use any type of stain or dye on the cherry veneer, just the shellack.

On the Encores I used a pre-stain conditioner and mahogany oil based stain, both from General Finishes, applied to Baltic Birch plywood. Again, the darker streaks occurred when transitioning from one panel to another with a rounded over edge between them.

I put a towel under the finished side when working on the opposite side but when I turned the cabinet back over the side on the towel would have smudges in the finish (shellack). I always allowed the shellack to dry 18-24 hours before placing a side down on the towel.

If I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong I'm going to have to take a finishing class. The downside is that the class costs as much as an upgraded N3 kit.

Mike

[mlundy57]

Mark,

I never thought of applying stain to a vertical piece or with a brush or roller. I have always applied stain with the surface horizontal and using a rag. The protection issue I have occurs when applying the finish coats, not the stain.

Mike

[Mark Korda]

Hi Mike, I used Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac on this piece of wood from the hobby shop (Amber) for a passive preamp project. I diluted it a little with alchohol. It dried to recoat in about 15 minutes. Between coats I just gave a few quick swipes with 220 grit sandpaper. I think I put about 5 coats on. I used a damp rag with some alchohol to wipe up any dust between sanding. I put poly on a friends inside porch pine boards. To go faster I polyed all the cracks first. Then I used a bigger brush to do the bigger surface area of the pine boards. When it dried my friend said the job sucked. Another paint friend said I (over lapped). He sanded my over lapping down to fix it then recoated. The solution is to paint with a wet edge. I tried to speed things up and the cracks were not dry yet and also had twice the coating of the surface pine. With a latex or water based paint you can get away with it. With an oil or alchohol based product things must be totally dry before a second coat can be used or it will cause bubbling or wrinkling. If you relate that to a transparent or opaque coat the same applies. I'd sand  things down a little, not all the way, and give her another coat using the wet edge, meaning never let the edge of the last stroke or roll dry until the whole thing is coated....I hope this makes a little sense......I'm going out for a brew....Mark K.

[Hank]

I've not used shellac, but am surprised that it's darkening your veneer where you overlap.  Try the progressive we-or-dry paper, then your final French polish (rottenstone?).

[jcotner]

I've done a number of cabinets for the home and use stain a lot.
I get even color by using a sanding sealer before applying the stain.
Cut down Shellac is my usual go to. Two coats and sand, then stain.
That's worked well for me.
I use the gel stains also, that might have helped.

[mlundy57]

The more coats of shellack that are applied the darker the finish gets. So when I have two opposite directions overlapping the area of overlap gets twice as many coats, and is therefore darker, than the areas on either side. The shellack doesn't actually darken the wood veneer. It is actually the shellack that is darker.

Looks like I might have to take that class after all 

Mike

[mlundy57]

When you apply a finish like Danish oil or shellack that requires multiple coats do you put one coat on all 6 sides of the cabinet before putting a second coat on the first side or do you finish the sides sequentially e.g. put all 5 coats on one side before starting on the second side?

Mike

[jcotner]

Well I tend to do all coats on a given surface and then proceed to the next.
I also use a HVLP rig and spray so I'm not so sure if I had to brush the
finish on.
The issue you describe with the edges should be minimized if you
do one coat on all surfaces. Just like when you paint, edges have
to be done slowly and carefully to avoid finish buildup on the edges.
That's one reason I like to spray things.

[Mark Korda]

Hi Mike, the question you just asked a bit ago solved the finish problem. You never do 5 coats of anything on one side and then precede to putting the same number of coats on another side. I mentioned vertical instead of horizontal so with brush,roller,or spray, you can put on a coat like Johny Cash,one piece,sorry one coat at a time. Thats why your shellac is discoloring the other side....remember the wet edge theory, the finish wants to be uniform....Mark

[Hank]

When you apply a finish like Danish oil or shellack that requires multiple coats do you put one coat on all 6 sides of the cabinet

  definitely YES

[mlundy57]

Thanks all. That should solve my problems. I did each side complete based on a series of videos I watched on french polishing a guitar. The video showed the back being completely finished without touching the sides or front. I wasn't sure if that meant that was the way you were supposed to do it of if it was just done that way to demonstrate the complete technique.

It makes more sense to do one coat on all sides before moving on to the second coat. Maybe I can build another speaker instead of taking the class after all. 

Mike

[Hank]

   Yes, go for it.  You can't fight it.  You are hooked.  Now, enough talk - get busy.

[mlundy57]

  Yes, go for it.  You can't fight it.  You are hooked.  Now, enough talk - get busy.

I've been busy, where do you think all these questions come from? 

I won't mentioned the fact that I also learned it is real easy to sand through the veneer on the rounded over edges when trying to remove the finish to try and correct mistakes  (oops, wasn't supposed to say that was I  )

Mike

[Hank]

 

[mlundy57]

I've always heard we learn best from out mistakes so I guess I'm learning a whole bunch 

Mike

[Mark Korda]

Hi Mike, I wrote you the other night to try to explain that Hank was just trying to give you a pep talk to be a better do it your selfer, I'm sure Hank has not issued a timeline in which your speaker has to be done. You are right,you can only learn by making certain mistakes then using your  squash to over come them. As I got older in the painting trade I took up wallpapering. The anquish and madness that that provides is only conquered by learning from your mistakes to some day do it with ease. I don't know if you have a camera but I, and I'm sure Hank would love to see a picture of your finished speaker! If it looks like Stradaverius finished it or Jethro Bodine from the Hillbillys, who cares if it sounds real good...I'm sure it's great.....show us....Mark Korda