[matt_garman]

Disclaimer: I haven't actually heard the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR speakers, but given all the discussion they've generated in this forum, I'm assuming they live up to their promise of "bang for buck".

So assuming those speakers represent a baseline of sorts, what's the next step up?  I want to discount used and esoteric stuff, i.e. keep it to things that are still being produced and relatively easy to obtain.

What do you all think is the next price level after the Pioneer's?  And how much improvement in performance will there be at that price level?

[Letitroll98]

Axiom, Polk RTi series, PSB Alphas, etc, all $300 and above.

[FireGuy]

Axiom, Polk RTi series, PSB Alphas, etc, all $300 and above.

I'll add Ascend, NHT and Aperion.   And, in some cases, some of these bookshelf models are more  than a step up. 

[milford3]

And let me add Audio Engine.

http://audioengineusa.com/Store

[bprice2]

How do we know these other offerings are a step up?  Has anyone compared them? 

[Letitroll98]

Yes, there are about a zillion possibilities at the next step up.  I feel like I should have said, "To get the ball rolling I'd suggest....".  I would only caution that as this is C&C circle that next step up would have to be in the $400 and under price range.  For example I initially thought of Epos as a contender, and when looking up the model number realized they don't have anything under $600 anymore.  Keep 'em comin' boys, lets see how many we can rack up.

The OP also asked what improvement one might obtain at the next step up.  The obvious is frequency response extension, detail, soundstaging, dynamics (both high level and micro-dynamic changes, speed if you will), and a more liquid (smooth) top end.  Basically getting closer to the sound of the actually recording, which of course is a whole other discussion.  It's kind of like saying, "I don't know how to describe it, but I know it when I hear it."  Everything at this level has some amount of compromise, which areas are more important are personal to each listener, but for a generalized "what is better" I think the above is a good starting point. 

[wushuliu]

Hm, some of these suggestions seem more based on price to me. The Pioneers use six component good quality crossovers, most of the names mentioned as better do NOT - not to mention controversial and/or unimpressive frequency response. I did a lot of research back in the day on some of those popular brands and as far as parts quality and measured performance goes there are not that many IMO that are superior to the Pioneer in the <$400 range. Pioneer has the pockets to sell their speakers for so little but these other companies would have to sell the equivalent starting in >$300 IMO at best with internet direct companies like Aperion and Ascend being the closest since they don't have B&M store costs to factor in.

For $400 you hit interesting and potentially better possibilities like the Definitive Technology SM45s (Amazon $199ea), aforementioned. Ascend has their CBM 170 at $300 but I'd be curious to hear a comparison as on paper at least they don't seem to have anything over the Pioneers except maybe cabinet quality.

[roscoeiii]

Look at some of the Stereophile columns and reviews by Meijas and Reina. They tend to review sub-$1000 speakers (Meijas usually under $500). A good place to get comparisons. At these price points compromises must be made. These reviews can help you decide what flavor might work best for you.

Tho as always, no substitute for an audition. But good for helping narrow down the possibilities.

[roscoeiii]

Oh and the new Music Hall speaker has gotten good reviews. IIRC it is under $400.

[jmc207]

Ascend has their CBM 170 at $300 but I'd be curious to hear a comparison as on paper at least they don't seem to have anything over the Pioneers except maybe cabinet quality.

IMHO, the Ascend CBM-170's are a definite step up from the Pioneers. In my home office I've been rotating the Pioneers in and out with a pair of CBM-170 SE's, or some Wharfedale 70th Anniversary 8.1's. Both the Ascend's and Wharfedale's have a clearer, fuller, more sophisticated sound, with the Ascend's having the most bass of the three. In comparison, my set of Pioneers come across as being somewhat harsh and not nearly as natural sounding, nor detailed. They are very good/excellent for the price, but after a number of swaps, I can listen much longer and at higher volumes to the Ascend's or Wharfedale's.

- John
 

[wushuliu]

IMHO, the Ascend CBM-170's are a definite step up from the Pioneers. In my home office I've been rotating the Pioneers in and out with a pair of CBM-170 SE's, or some Wharfedale 70th Anniversary 8.1's. Both the Ascend's and Wharfedale's have a clearer, fuller, more sophisticated sound, with the Ascend's having the most bass of the three. In comparison, my set of Pioneers come across as being somewhat harsh and not nearly as natural sounding, nor detailed. They are very good/excellent for the price, but after a number of swaps, I can listen much longer and at higher volumes to the Ascend's or Wharfedale's.

- John

Just to clarify these are the BS22 Pioneers you have not the older version? Let's also keep in mind the 4" woofer size of the Pioneer versus much larger woofer size of aforementioned competitors... A 6.5" will likely give a fuller, more fleshed out presentation vs 4"  depending on how a sub is crossed over as those larger woofers can have as much as 1.5x or more surface area... The Pioneers have to be used with a sub and probably crossed over higher than one would with say a Wharfedale or the Ascend. This also limits how loud they can go of course. Just some of the factors to consider.

My money still falls on the Def Tech SM45s for $400 as a top contender stepping up. The bass response from the passive radiator just kicks azz. No sub needed in a moderate or smaller room. And the finish and cabinets rival NHTs. Piano gloss and dense enough to pass the knuckle rap test.

[JLM]

It's very gratifying how much quality can be had these days for relatively cheap.  Back in the 70s when I started out the LS3/5a was all the rave, at roughly 8-times these prices (considering inflation).  Today I'm confident that my original Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 sonics/content wise would hold up very well against my old LS3/5a clones.  The Ascend Acoustics are good enough that, except for missing the bottom octave + of music, I sometimes wonder why I spent 10 times as much on my 'babies' in the main rig.

Yet I'm moving on to powered/active designs (and so don't feel compelled to hold to the stated $400 component limit as many of these include DAC capabilities as well as power amps and all but eliminate the need for a pre-amp).  Powered/active speakers have design/sonic advantages over passives (especially actives) that frankly only an audio dinosaur would ignore.  As such and accounting for the fact that we all have computers available to use as a source nearly the entire C&C budget ($1000 or less) can be spent on a range of high quality powered/active speakers such as:

Adam F5 ($500/pair), Sub F ($400) and Schiit modi ($99)  Studio quality plus deep bass.

KEF X300A ($800/pair)  Well reviewed, includes a DAC, but is the only one here that doesn't easily accommodate a sub.

Paradigm Shift A2 ($558) and Schiit modi ($99)  A throughly modern/flexible/competent design using digital amps and DSP.

Vanatoo Transparent One ($500)  Includes a DSP & DAC functions, this is the only powered option here and the only one that might be only be the equal of my Ascend Acoustics (but with deeper bass).

[AJinFLA]

IMHO, the "next step up" in terms of size, output, sensitivity, etc. and a slight edge in SQ, while not breaking the bank, is the Infinity P153 http://www.stereophile.com/content/infinity-primus-150-loudspeaker-measurements. Much from the same design school of smooth on/off axis and concentrating on what matters (physical) SQ wise vs not, etc.
Around $160-200/pr, though available as single, were one want to use a vertical/identical center for HT.
Caveat: My opinions are based on owning/hearing/comparing both under (single) blind conditions, YMMV.

cheers,

AJ

[persisting1]

I'm sure there are more than a few DIY kits that would make you happy.

I doubt that will be suffice for you. There are DIY companies that have an extensive support base not only for drivers, but also building tips.

[DS-21]

I'd say the "next step up" in price-performance is probably the Behringer Truth with the 8" woofer and dome tweeter. Either the passive or active model.

Smooth response, good pattern control (waveguide-loaded dome, but much bigger WG than the Pioneers), and capable of a lot higher output. Also easy to improve: just stuff cotton balls in the ports.

The downside compared to the Pioneer is no grills.

[fredgarvin]

I'm thinking along the lines of JLM on this. Speaking in desk top terms, I wouldn't want a larger speaker such as the speakers mentioned above tend to be. My bet would be a similar sized active speaker would be the place to look. I had Axioms on my desk and the Pioneers were better. head to head. Bass and midrange was deeper and more palpable, but the top end was more resolving with the Axiom 22's.

I'd like to hear from someone that has found a speaker that sounds better on the destop, without a large jump in price or very little size difference.

[matt_garman]

I'd like to hear from someone that has found a speaker that sounds better on the destop, without a large jump in price or very little size difference.

That was actually my ulterior motive in starting this thread: I'm casually on the lookout for something great (but cheap of course) for my desktop.

What I'm using now is the DIY route, in particular, Paul Carmody's Overnight Sensations.  I got them at PE's sale price (on sale now, actually), $120.  With DIY in general, there's a seemingly endless supply of plans (at every price range), but not a lot with knockdown cabinet kits... I don't have the tools (or the time) to do the woodworking many of these plans call for.  There are folks out there who will build cabinets for you, but the cost for that often eats away much of the savings DIY has to offer.

That said, I really want to try the Speedster, by the same designer.  Still fairly small, but with higher-end drivers.  The kit (without cabinets) is $305.

Back to the Overnight Sensations (OS): I wish I had some of those Pioneers for comparison.  The prices are very similar.  I have very little experience with nicer speakers, so I can't give very useful feedback.  My Salk Songtowers are the highest-end speakers I've ever heard.  When I first assembled my OS, I put them on top of my Songtowers for a quick test (just moved the speaker wires out of the ST into the OS).  I doubt anyone will be surprised that the ST sounded noticeably better.  It's been a while now since I compared them, so I don't recall exactly what it was that made the ST better... I just remember that things sounded much clearer with more separation of instruments.

On the other hand, with the OS on my desk, at low volumes, they sound great.  My only complaint is that I don't "feel the magic", for lack of better words.  I can listen to them for a long time without any fatigue.  They are resolving enough to illustrate differences in other components; for example, I heard a noticeable improvement when I moved from the TK2050-based HiFimeDIY T2 amp to the $10 TPA3110 board (that is now receiving a lot of attention in this circle).  Lousy recordings (Red Hot Chili Peppers "Californication") are obvious.  For the price, and the fun of building them, they are fantastic.  They wouldn't be my first pick to be stuck on a desert island with, but if I ended up with them on said island, I wouldn't complain. 

Side note: on my desk, my OS rest on yoga blocks, similar to these.  By pure luck, the dimensions of the yoga blocks and OS are practically the same.  A great, cheap way to put some space between the woofer and my desktop.

It's interesting to see several suggestions of the Ascend CBM-170.  I've seen a lot of glowing reviews for them elsewhere.  Their width makes them a little awkward for placement on a desk though.  I'm actually curious how their bigger brother, the Sierra-1, would sound for nearfield (i.e. desktop) use.  I've seen them used for around $500, and I think that counts as Cheap & Cheerful (for a liberal interpretation of the guidelines, and I am using a $10 amp ).

[Ericus Rex]

I'd like to hear from someone that has found a speaker that sounds better on the destop, without a large jump in price or very little size difference.

I don't think there is anything better that meets your criteria...except Dennis Murphy's modded Pioneers ($150/pr).

I thought the OP was looking for info about what you might have to spend to better the Pioneers.

[smargo]

That was actually my ulterior motive in starting this thread: I'm casually on the lookout for something great (but cheap of course) for my desktop.

And the grand sleeper of the year or the decade for that matter - is the cambride aero 2's - using a balanced mode radiator tweeter (for the highs and the midrange) - for $499 this is my pick for speaker of the year and the last 10 years - this is really different and special and magical - it is a bookshelf - but not a desktop

everyone who raves about how good their speakers are - hasn't heard this special bookshelf speaker

[zieglj01]

I don't think there is anything better that meets your criteria...except Dennis Murphy's modded Pioneers ($150/pr).

I thought the OP was looking for info about what you might have to spend to better the Pioneers.

That is the answer, for just a little more