[neobop]

Anyone running balanced phono?

What do you think, better because it's balanced, or better because higher quality, or not better?

neo

[poseidonsvoice]

Anyone running balanced phono?

What do you think, better because it's balanced, or better because higher quality, or not better?

neo

Neo,

Can you clarify what you mean by balanced phono? What I mean to say is that there are a lot of phono preamps whose circuitry is single ended but by virtue of using an output transformer, have balanced output capability via XLR. There are also other phono preamps (far fewer, more rare and more expensive) which are completely balanced input to output, including balanced circuitry.

For example, the infamous Zesto Andros PS1 is a unit with balanced outputs, but not balanced circuitry. It has balanced outputs by virtue of using Jensen output transformers (I asked the designer-George Counnas). Another example is Kevin Carter's Maxxed Out Phono unit, except it uses Lundahl output transformers, and is a completely different circuit design than the Zesto.

For fully balanced units, input to output, there is the late Allen Wrights RTP3D unit, which doesn't use transformers in the circuit at all but is fully balanced through and through. Jim Hagerman's latest Trumpet Reference uses fully balanced circuitry, as does Kevin Carter's high end division, Sonus Veritas Venice. Or the Audio Research Reference Phono 2SE.

I'm sure there are solid state examples of the above as well. Many of them however, when they advertise themselves as 'balanced', they really mean balanced circuitry as well.

Best,
Anand.

[neobop]

Hi Anand,
I mean fully balanced from input to output like some low impedance microphone preamps. 
This would require balanced tonearm cables.

I'm not sure of all the brands that are fully balanced - BAT, Einstein, Rowland, Audio Note, and the ones you mentioned?

I think there are quite a few others that have outputs for a balanced linestage, but are not really balanced like the Zesto or PS Audio.
neo

[blakep]

I've been using an Aqvox 2CI for about 6 1/2 years now. Fully balanced from input to output, current mode phono preamp. I was an early adopter with this phono preamp as I was able to audition and purchase it at a bargain price (at least I think it was a bargain) from a local guy who, at that time, had the North American distribution rights.

Shortly after that Aqvox picked up a much larger North American distributor, got a pretty good review in Stereophile and the price went up 50-100%. Since then Aqvox has dropped North American distribution and sell directly from Germany at a more aggressive price (but still incredibly reasonable IMO).

Regardless, I've been very happy with the Aqvox. I don't have a lot of experience with uber expensive phono stages, other than having heard a few, but I have no desire to upgrade. The Aqvox is significantly better on the balanced inputs than single ended, and virtually every review of it says that as well.

Phono cartridges are inherently balanced devices so balanced phono stages make perfect sense. I think that particularly with low output MC's balanced makes a lot of sense in terms of noise reduction; the Aqvox is deadly quiet and really transparent with the low output cartridges I've used. No need for loading with the current mode either; in general, though, I think the Aqvox probably works best in current mode with cartridges with fairly low (say under 20 ohms) internal impedances.

A lot of the ideas/technology in the Aqvox eventually found their way into the BMC phono stage, which appears to be built to much higher standards. Have not heard the BMC and it would not make much sense in my system financially, but the designer and principal business operator/owner are one and the same with Aqvox and BMC.

Personally, I would not go back to a non-balanced phono stage.

[neobop]

Blakep,
Thanks for your reply.
Interesting piece.  What other phono stages did you use before the 2CI?  Also with a low impedance LOMC?
neo

[Elizabeth]

I own the Audio Research PH-2 which is fully balanced from in to out.
I own it but it mostly just sits unused, as i have two other phono boxes i enjoy using also.
I made a cheap RCA ro XLR cable to use on the cartridge side. Buying a TT with a special balanced out is not in my cards.

Ir is no better or worse than other $2,500. phono boxes.. I paid $700 for mine used years ago. Rare. It never was reviewed anywhere, so never had much 'charm'.
It benefits greatly from a good power conditioner. Curious for a phono box it uses a LOT of power. Leaving it on 24/7 is like leaving a class "A" amp on!!!
Thinking of it, I should plug the sucker in and use it today. (thanks)

Just plugged the ARC PH-2 in and running now. She takes a few hours to sound glorious, but I can wait!

[blakep]

Blakep,
Thanks for your reply.
Interesting piece.  What other phono stages did you use before the 2CI?  Also with a low impedance LOMC?
neo

I upgraded to the Aqvox from a DB Systems 8HG which I had David Hadaway at DB Systems modifiy to provide 62 dB of gain for an Ortofon MC 20 Super that I was using at the time. The DB Systems has/had fixed loading at 100 ohms. After the Ortofon, I moved on to using Denon 103R's both stock and modified (different bodies, retipped, etc) and the 103R's required gain pretty similar to the Ortofon.

Through the single ended inputs, the Aqvox was better than the DB Systems but the improvement was not really significant; thorugh the balanced inputs, the Aqvox really was in another league. I can recall thinking at the time it was probably the biggest improvement I'd had with respect to a component upgrade.

The Aqvox also alllows for the use of either single ended or balanced output with balanced input (I do run balanced all the way to the speakers with phono); while there is definitely a sonic improvement with the use of balanced output from the phono stage, with the Aqvox the lion's share of the improvement comes from the use of the balanced input. If I had to put it in terms of percentages, I'd say that 75-80% of the improvement of running balanced comes from running balanced from the cartridge into the phono stage with an additional 20-25% coming from running balanced out.

I've not actually used the MC 20 Super with the Aqvox as it was worn out before I bought the Aqvox.  I did keep it, however, and had it retipped by Peter Ledermann as a spare a few years ago. It has even lower internal impedance than the 103R (5 ohms vs. 14 on the 103R) so I'm curious to see how it matches up with the Aqvox but just haven't gotten around to it.

[neobop]

I own the Audio Research PH-2 which is fully balanced from in to out.
I own it but it mostly just sits unused, as i have two other phono boxes i enjoy using also.
I made a cheap RCA ro XLR cable to use on the cartridge side. Buying a TT with a special balanced out is not in my cards.

Ir is no better or worse than other $2,500. phono boxes.. I paid $700 for mine used years ago. Rare. It never was reviewed anywhere, so never had much 'charm'.
It benefits greatly from a good power conditioner. Curious for a phono box it uses a LOT of power. Leaving it on 24/7 is like leaving a class "A" amp on!!!
Thinking of it, I should plug the sucker in and use it today. (thanks)

Just plugged the ARC PH-2 in and running now. She takes a few hours to sound glorious, but I can wait!

Hi Elizabeth,
Thanks for telling us about your PH-2.  This is an all solid state unit.  I saw a picture of the insides and looks like it has a big torridal transformer, and I assume a mute switch but no standby mode with reduced power consumption.

Fixed gain of 48dB - solder in resistors to change loading? 

neo

[neobop]

I upgraded to the Aqvox from a DB Systems 8HG which I had David Hadaway at DB Systems modifiy to provide 62 dB of gain for an Ortofon MC 20 Super that I was using at the time. The DB Systems has/had fixed loading at 100 ohms. After the Ortofon, I moved on to using Denon 103R's both stock and modified (different bodies, retipped, etc) and the 103R's required gain pretty similar to the Ortofon.

Through the single ended inputs, the Aqvox was better than the DB Systems but the improvement was not really significant; thorugh the balanced inputs, the Aqvox really was in another league. I can recall thinking at the time it was probably the biggest improvement I'd had with respect to a component upgrade.

The Aqvox also alllows for the use of either single ended or balanced output with balanced input (I do run balanced all the way to the speakers with phono); while there is definitely a sonic improvement with the use of balanced output from the phono stage, with the Aqvox the lion's share of the improvement comes from the use of the balanced input. If I had to put it in terms of percentages, I'd say that 75-80% of the improvement of running balanced comes from running balanced from the cartridge into the phono stage with an additional 20-25% coming from running balanced out.

I've not actually used the MC 20 Super with the Aqvox as it was worn out before I bought the Aqvox.  I did keep it, however, and had it retipped by Peter Ledermann as a spare a few years ago. It has even lower internal impedance than the 103R (5 ohms vs. 14 on the 103R) so I'm curious to see how it matches up with the Aqvox but just haven't gotten around to it.

I've read conjecture that a unit designed for balanced operation will usually sound better in that mode.  That seems to be the situation with your Aqvox.
Since it's a little better than the 8HG single ended, it's hard to get a basis of comparison (SE vs BAL).
I think you bought it at the right time and got a good deal. Sounds like a nice piece.
neo

[Elizabeth]

Hi Elizabeth,
Thanks for telling us about your PH-2.  This is an all solid state unit.  I saw a picture of the insides and looks like it has a big torridal transformer, and I assume a mute switch but no standby mode with reduced power consumption.

Fixed gain of 48dB - solder in resistors to change loading? 

neo

Yes solder in resistors. and stuffto change for capacitance. i have a baggie with the original extra caps and resistors..
The front panel has on off and a mute switch only.

[woodsyi]

I use Aesthetix Io (partial) Eclipse which has balanced topology.  I use balanced phono cable from my LOMC cart to input and go balanced out to my preamp.  I have used single end on the same setup.  Going balanced is a de facto winner in my case.  You see,  I had a very difficult time taming the hum issue using single end connections whereas I have no such problem with balanced connections.  In fact, going balanced was the solution to the humming problem.  As for the sound,  I love the tonality I get from Io.  When you are a sucker for vocals like I am, nothing is better.  Is it because of balanced topology?  Or is it all tubes amplification stages?  Or both? 

I don't know if balanced topology is inherently better than single end.  What I do know is that I don't have to worry about hums (ground loop or nearby transformer induced) when I go  balanced.  In a complicated set up like I have, it really is a PITA (rerouting, rearranging, rewiring outlets, trying isolation or "humbusting" transformers, chewing through nails, pulling hairs, you name it) to fix hums.  Thank god for balanced phonostage!

[neobop]

Woodsyi,
Interesting phono pre, get it new?

Hum seems to be a much bigger problem with tubes and SUTs.  Years ago I messed around with an SUT (Cotter) going into a solid state pre.  Had to move it around to eliminate the hum.  Going straight into many solid state preamps is no problem regarding hum.  I guess if you have a power transformer too close, just about any cart will hum.  Balance connection eliminates 6dB of common mode noise.  My philosophy tends to be, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
But my interest is really qualitative and the need for balanced topology.  It's hard to get a handle if the same or similar unit would sound as good single ended.  If a balanced unit sounds better in that mode, there's really no way of knowing. 
Thanks for your input.
neo

[woodsyi]

Neo,

I got a used signature and sent it in to get the eclipse upgrade.   They basically put a new unit inside the old case.  I was too cheap to spring for the new cases.  I didn't think the claimed sonic benefit of the latest cases (as nice looking as they are) was worth the price they were asking. 

Anyway, I think you are going to find pros and cons like everything else in this hobby with the balanced and single end topology.  I have had single end phono-stages that were quiet and very nice but as you wander into price-no-object territory I am thinking dual mono PS and balanced is the way to go.   I commissioned a battery powered tube phono-stage from Gary Dodd to be a dedicated mono playback setup and wanted it balanced.  It costs more to go balanced since you have to build two sections but I thought it would be worth the cost for the extra quietness.  It's probably an over-kill since it's BP and for mono use but when you are dealing with LOMC voltage and the amount of amplification it requires, I want a systematically quieter design.   BTW, I am using the Vintage Toshiba 510 TT that you pointed us to a while ago.  I had to Dremel out 1mm to put the Encounter arm in.  Oh, and this is for TCG -- I stuffed 15 lb of plasticlay (electricians putty in my case) inside.

[TheChairGuy]

15lbs!? Never found a table that could fit more than 8lbs myself.  Love it 

[neobop]

Woodsyi,
I must admit I'm more than a little surprised.  A new Aesthetix Io costs around $25K.  I was thinking you probably had a SME 10, HRX, or at the least, a Classic.  That's totally cool, and look at the size of that plinth.  It looks like a trap door on the armboard next to the arm.  15 lbs of clay no less.  Bet it sounds solid as a rock.  Separate rig for mono?  What's that Encounter arm?  Sure doesn't look like Origin Live.
Glad the Toshiba is working out.
neo

[nickd]

You might want to check out the Liberty phono preamp. You use two of them to run "fully balanced" they are priced reasonably and MF and JA have both used and enjoyed it in their personal Rigs. It's ultra quiet, and very dynamic. all FET input and output with discrete RIAA circut (no op-amps used). Built like a tank too.

[neobop]

You might want to check out the Liberty phono preamp. You use two of them to run "fully balanced" they are priced reasonably and MF and JA have both used and enjoyed it in their personal Rigs. It's ultra quiet, and very dynamic. all FET input and output with discrete RIAA circut (no op-amps used). Built like a tank too.

Hi Nickd,
Yes, I've heard of the Liberty phono stage.  A fellow named Peter of PBN audio keeps mentioning them on Agon forum.  Another fellow who posts mostly on Karma called Mr Pig, has one and I think he wrote a review.  I don't know how I'd check it out without buying one. Isn't it sold direct?

This is an interesting design.  It has separate input and output stages and can be configured for different amounts of gain.  I believe it costs $1750 and is less expensive ($500) than the John Curl designed Parasound JC3.  That would be an interesting comparison, Liberty vs JC3.  Do you have one?  If so, what other phono stages have you owned?
neo

[poseidonsvoice]

Hi Nickd,
Yes, I've heard of the Liberty phono stage.  A fellow named Peter of PBN audio keeps mentioning them on Agon forum.  Another fellow who posts mostly on Karma called Mr Pig, has one and I think he wrote a review.  I don't know how I'd check it out without buying one. Isn't it sold direct?

This is an interesting design.  It has separate input and output stages and can be configured for different amounts of gain.  I believe it costs $1750 and is less expensive ($500) than the John Curl designed Parasound JC3.  That would be an interesting comparison, Liberty vs JC3.  Do you have one?  If so, what other phono stages have you owned?
neo

Yes, you had a good discourse with Mr. Pig right here, along with his review. And Liberty Audio has more details on their website, including a pic of the innards. $1750 will only buy you one channel if you are after a balanced fully differential topology. So you need a pair for both channels, or $3500. For RCA outputs, only one unit is needed however.

Best,
Anand.

[neobop]

Yes, you had a good discourse with Mr. Pig right here, along with his review. And Liberty Audio has more details on their website, including a pic of the innards. $1750 will only buy you one channel if you are after a balanced fully differential topology. So you need a pair for both channels, or $3500. For RCA outputs, only one unit is needed however.

Best,
Anand.

Is it appropriate or beneficial to double up a single ended design for a balanced configuration?

Balanced uses mirror imaged sections (almost twice the parts) that separates the + and - sides of the signal, and amplifies them "independently".  Any part of the signal that shows up at the input equally, or the same at both of these sides is rejected or cancelled.  That's why you get 6dB of common mode noise rejection.  Pros use balanced line.  I think the use of low impedance microphones with long cables had something to do with the adoption of balanced configuration.  This brings up another aspect of balanced vs single ended.  What happens if the sides are not perfectly matched and there's a difference between the + and - sides of the same waveform?  Any differences would be thrown into the mix.  I think this would include phase or time it takes the signal to go from input to output on each side.   Are any two examples of the same part exactly identical?  What about tubes?

I've been told that table designer Jim Kelly designed a circuit that cancels these differences and makes the two sides of the waveform the same.  Seems like a good idea.  It also seems like a long way to go to achieve the accuracy potential of single ended.  When it comes to electronic parts, they all suck.  They're all flawed and imperfect.  However, some suck less than others.

I never really thought about it, but how would you even hook up two single ended preamps for balanced use?  I guess you'd use one complete pre for each channel.  But then you'd have four RCA jacks and two plugs which have to be reconfigured.  Consult the manufacturer or your psychiatrist.  (joke)
neo

[woodsyi]

Woodsyi,
I must admit I'm more than a little surprised.  A new Aesthetix Io costs around $25K.  I was thinking you probably had a SME 10, HRX, or at the least, a Classic.  That's totally cool, and look at the size of that plinth.  It looks like a trap door on the armboard next to the arm.  15 lbs of clay no less.  Bet it sounds solid as a rock.  Separate rig for mono?  What's that Encounter arm?  Sure doesn't look like Origin Live.
Glad the Toshiba is working out.
neo

I am running 3 tables.  Io is with Teres.  Toshiba is the dedicated mono player or will be once Gary delivers on the phono stage.  Hope his health is better.  The arm in the picture is the original which I removed -- had to desolder the hard wiring inside.  There was a lot of hollow space under the plinth.  I bought a few lb bars of electricians putty and had to run out and hit 2 Home Depot stores (as one ran out) to get all the putty I needed to complete the job.  It's solid now.