NEW PRODUCTION

rob400 · « **Reply #40 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 03:22 pm »

I shouldn't assume but take your wallet with you Charlie

threadkiller · « **Reply #41 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 03:31 pm »

Lol! Agreed, Rob.
Unlike so many idiotic "improvements" I read about on here by well meaning yet clueless folks, this comes from Firebaugh... and not the marketing geniuses of New Zealand, either. This should be great and worthwhile...should be a great fall listening season once I get it...
Cheers!

watercourse · « **Reply #42 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 04:04 pm »

It would be informative to others if any technical info regarding the LTD arms could be passed along to the rest of the forum. Otherwise it sounds like ad copy.

rob400 · « **Reply #43 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 04:32 pm »

Quote from: watercourse on 21 Sep 2013, 04:04 pm

It would be informative to others if any technical info regarding the LTD arms could be passed along to the rest of the forum. Otherwise it sounds like ad copy.

I didn't design it so not am not qualified to provide detailed technical info. It's an audio product. The upgrade sounds better in Steve's and my opinion. That's what we are passing on.

threadkiller · « **Reply #44 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 04:42 pm »

And as I've constantly stated, I'm not technically inclined, so no input from me there. I do know what you were doing with your arm/cartridge is wrong, and Mr P will/can tell you why, but not I.
As for the LTD? I don't like. Not a fan of the cabling coming right off the arm. So see? I'm not writing ad copy either. I know what I know by listening and experience, not theory or home brew experimentation.

watercourse · « **Reply #45 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 04:56 pm »

Actually, if you think about just the concept of (rather than the technical side) an additional "accepted" alignment to the pair of Lofgrens and Stevenson methods, like one has to with Firebaugh's new alignment, then how does experimenting with adding overhang to the WTL alignment seem wrong? Not to mention VPI's alignment, or other proprietary approaches. Makes one think that it might not make sense to just accept the approach, since there are so many others, especially if you are not getting great results.
Alignment is all geometry and first year calculus, and I'd like to lift the discussion out of the realm of he untouchable. It's something you can learn from through the experiment, and you won't break anything in the process if you're careful.

threadkiller · « **Reply #46 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 05:54 pm »

Now that sounds logical to me.
Although in my limited, very limited, realm of technical knowledge, I wouldn't mix designer's theories.
Firebaugh is a brilliant engineer. Harry Weisfield a brilliant marketer.
I have been told that trying to adjust overhang on an WTL product the way you have been is the wrong approach, and will yield poor results. I cannot engage in any technical discussion, and I apologize for that.
I would say enjoy what you are doing if you like it. However, if we were properly moderated, lol, gotcha, Mr P, that your ideas would get shot down.

watercourse · « **Reply #47 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 06:25 pm »

Well that would be a sad thing indeed, if that would be what Mr. P would do. Seems sharing of experiences with WTL products among owners would be supported, otherwise, what is the intent of this circle?
On the other hand, I think that what staunch supporters on this circle might be reading into my experimentation as questioning Firebaugh's methods is not accurate; it's actually misguided. If a novel approach such as Firebaugh's works, why not try to figure out why?
In the practical sciences, which is my field, we run into this situation all the time: On the face of it, an approach may deviate from the "known", and yet still achieve a stated goal or outcome. If tested enough by trained individuals, then this novel approach might also become a known. Sound familiar? It's the scientific method.
Then again, others may not want to go down this road, which is completely understandable. But don't criticize my approach, it's not wrong, plain and simple, it's probably how Firebaugh himself arrived at his alignment: trial and error, observation of changes, comparing results against other trials, etc. etc.

threadkiller · « **Reply #48 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 06:35 pm »

Good points.. What I've heard and seen of Mr F, one has to be sharp as a tack to keep up.

As for what you're doing, my only input could be if I sat there and listened to your system before and after, or to make the correct test, properly set up by Mr P or F, and then listen to your experiment. Then I'd have insightful input. Otherwise I'm useless.

watercourse · « **Reply #49 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 06:37 pm »

Being a scientist also, one would assume Mr. Firebaugh would not take it personally if someone tested his hypotheses. Peer review: it's the name of the game.

threadkiller · « **Reply #50 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 06:51 pm »

Agreed... I wouldn't think so either. Just be on your game! Lol
And I do understand you wanting to dissect it. I just want to listen.

Now let me ask you one question...
The Simplex sounds fine, better than Regas and VPI's in that range.
Yet that lil arm feels horrible to use. My scientific term would be rinkydink.
How can you stand to cue with it?
I 'll take my answer off the air, if you please....

watercourse · « **Reply #51 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 06:56 pm »

Again, I've gone through peer review for my own publications, so one has to learn to not get their ego too wrapped up in all of this.

What I am actually seeking is the bounds outside of which the new alignment might not work, i.e. are there carts that work better than others, of a given mounting hole-to-stylus distance? This is not about me proving anybody wrong or right. This is a hobby and we want to listen to music.

Anyway, the Simplex arm is well-balanced and easy to cue. You might just be used to the longer arm is all.

threadkiller · « **Reply #52 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 07:10 pm »

Now you're down on my level--- your answer doesn't correlate to my findings...your sample needs to be larger. My lab rats all gravitate to the Anadeus. Anyone who's tried it (the Simplex arm) seems to object strongly once presented with the Amadeus...
That's all I got..

watercourse · « **Reply #53 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 07:43 pm »

I've cued up the Amadeus too. Maybe I'm just used to 9" arms.

threadkiller · « **Reply #54 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 08:20 pm »

Now I can add one more...

That is very unscientific. It's been proven and written about since the early days of hifi that a longer tone arm is best. You with your short arm- tsk tsk... Lol

watercourse · « **Reply #55 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 08:30 pm »

Funny, but it seems like I'm not the one with something to "prove" here. Nothing wrong with simply having a preference; no need to cite anything else other than what you feel.

watercourse · « **Reply #56 on:** 21 Sep 2013, 10:06 pm »

But in all seriousness, what about the filament might lead to effects on VTA? Anyone know?

rob400 · « **Reply #57 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 06:11 am »

Quote from: watercourse on 21 Sep 2013, 10:06 pm

But in all seriousness, what about the filament might lead to effects on VTA? Anyone know?

I can only comment on my experience with Versalex with LTD arm and I'm not a scientist like yourself but I can relate my experience with VTA before and after the Symmetrex mod. Prior to Symmetrex the filament attached to the nibs on the golf ball at a wider point. With the recommended single filament twist from spindle to ball to create the correct anti skate the cartridge could not remain in a vertical tracking position across the entire LP. I believe this was due to the geometrical way in which the filament crossed over itself as it moved across the LP. I set things up so the cartridge was vertical at the LP mid way point accepting that the cartridge would be a couple of degrees or so out either way at the beginning and end. During a conversation with the WTL importer John Burns he informed me that vertical tracking angle does not have an effect on the tracking ability and therefore sound quality. However to my mind this is where the big change seems to be in the new design and the sound has definitely improved. The cartridge now remains vertical all the way across the record. I would be interested to hear your theory and any others regarding this.

watercourse · « **Reply #58 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 04:24 pm »

Interesting. I have not seen or heard the same issue with my stubby 9"...but small changes over your longer arm might be more noticeable and measureable - here, if there are any changes, they are on the order of tenths of degrees.

Does your filament have a round cross-section?

Did you notice VTA changes when listening? Visually? Both?

PS let's get straight that being a scientist only means you stick to a prescribed method for observation and testing hypotheses - it doesn't mean that scientists are necessarily inherently better at observation. Hopefully there is also less of a tendency towards "one right way" thinking.

rob400 · « **Reply #59 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 06:05 pm »

I appreciate your comments.

In answer to your questions, yes the filament is round in cross section. The small variation in VTR as the cartridge crossed the LP manifested itself sound wise as a very slight channel volume imbalance moving from right to left as the angle changed. I didn't hear any mistracking however even on difficuilt end of side tracks. The sound now is noticeably a little more solid and dynamic with obviously no sound volume imbalance. Well worth the upgrade cost IMO.