NEW PRODUCTION

watercourse · « **Reply #60 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 06:14 pm »

Rob400: initially when I read your comments about VTA changing due to filament geometry, I thought that it would more likely affect azimuth, rather than VTA, due to variations in the cross-sectional diameter. Given your experience of channel imbalance, it sounds more like azimuth-related issues?

Lastly, and back to the original topic, how did they change the approach to hanging the arm with the Symmetrex arm?

vortrex · « **Reply #61 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 06:20 pm »

I think he means azimuth too. Mine was always out of adjustment by the end of the LP.

watercourse · « **Reply #62 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 06:33 pm »

Funny, I just checked azimuth, and found that it has drifted after the listening sessions I just posted about. Ok, learn something new every day.

rob400 · « **Reply #63 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 06:42 pm »

Quote from: vortrex on 22 Sep 2013, 06:20 pm

I think he means azimuth too. Mine was always out of adjustment by the end of the LP.

I did mean both. To minimise the off set I set everything up with the cartridge at the half eay across the LP position.

SteveFord · « **Reply #64 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 06:49 pm »

Try hitting the line with some contact cleaner and see if that doesn't help the azimuth stay put.
You'd think there would be some way to make it set it and forget it with his designs.

watercourse · « **Reply #65 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 07:00 pm »

I think the issue is related to the lack of friction, and the smooth filament being the pathway for releasing the skating forces, which is causing azimuth drift. I would think the higher end models with the metal gasket would have more drift issues than the more sticky rubber gasket on the Simplex arm.

If it really bothers me, roughening the filament loop where it contacts the gasket would be my approach, but it's relatively easy to adjust azimuth, so no big deal in my case.

SteveFord · « **Reply #66 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 08:36 pm »

It can't be doing the stylus much good.

watercourse · « **Reply #67 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 08:44 pm »

Well, true, but the stylus not running parallel to the groove would be doing much worse over time, even if azimuth was perfect and stayed put, right?

SteveFord · « **Reply #68 on:** 22 Sep 2013, 09:40 pm »

That would not be a good thing, either.
You'd think that there would be an easy way to lock the azimuth adjustment into place.
I have two of the older tables and that's the one thing that bothers me about them.
I wonder about uneven stylus wear but perhaps I'm worrying about nothing.

watercourse · « **Reply #69 on:** 23 Sep 2013, 11:23 am »

OK, I've been lazy. I just had a good look at the LTD Symmetrex arms as included in the Mk II versions of the WTL tables, and it appears that the differences are 1) the gasket has been changed to rubber from metal, and 2) the golf ball now has a metal cap that the filament threads through. These are the retrofitted arms, not the standalone, all-metal arms.
Assuming this is what rob400 has, my guess that the rubber gasket might improve azimuth drift might be actually be at play in rob400's experience of better consistency of azimuth (maybe). I'm not sure I can get my head around the VTA thing, but still pondering. This would have to mean that the golf ball lifts over 4.6mm (0.1833 inches) over the 10.5" arm to effect a VTA change of 1 degree. That's a pretty significant lift, one that I'm sure Mr. Firebaugh would have noticed and engineered out. Of course, even minute differences in VTA on the order of tenths of a degree are perceivable IME, but I think it would have to be a sudden change in VTA for it to be noticed (by me at least). Not ruling it out, however.
But back to the new LTD tech: I wonder whether the metal cap also raises the effective mass of the arm significantly - does anyone know whether this is true? If so, does the increased mass allow it to seat in the silicone better, increasing the effectiveness of the damping, lowering resonances further? Guess I can shoot Mr. P an email and get off my lazy a**.
These questions aside from the "dynamic tracking" feature...

rob400 · « **Reply #70 on:** 23 Sep 2013, 11:58 am »

I have the Symmetrex mod fitted to my LTD Watercourse. Your theory on why the azimuth is now more consistent is good enough for me. Most important to me is that my Versalex now sounds fantastic. The Amadeus mk2 is pretty much on a par (my preference is still just for the Versalex) I've heard the Simplex and I believe for the money it's unbeatable. It has however slipped even further behind these Mk2 versions of the top two decks. if you get chance to dem one or the other let us know. It will be interesting to read about your experience.

gagamut · « **Reply #71 on:** 23 Sep 2013, 02:36 pm »

Quote from: watercourse on 21 Sep 2013, 04:56 pm

Actually, if you think about just the concept of (rather than the technical side) an additional "accepted" alignment to the pair of Lofgrens and Stevenson methods, like one has to with Firebaugh's new alignment, then how does experimenting with adding overhang to the WTL alignment seem wrong? Not to mention VPI's alignment, or other proprietary approaches. Makes one think that it might not make sense to just accept the approach, since there are so many others, especially if you are not getting great results.
Alignment is all geometry and first year calculus, and I'd like to lift the discussion out of the realm of he untouchable. It's something you can learn from through the experiment, and you won't break anything in the process if you're careful.

Hi,i have your same experience,trying different set up because not satisfy the sound,and after i find this forum and carefully read the discussion,i find i have wrong in my setup,my wrong setup is wrong direction of azimuth collar,now is everything amazing ,so you better check again.the golf ball to float central of the cup.

Sam

vortrex · « **Reply #72 on:** 23 Sep 2013, 02:57 pm »

one thing I noticed when trying to fix the drifting azimuth is that the collar has to be directly centered over the top of the ball. this is harder to do than it seems. if it's off, the azimuth will drift as you reach the end of the LP.

rob400 · « **Reply #73 on:** 23 Sep 2013, 03:12 pm »

Hi Sam. Surely the azimuth spindle per se isn't directional and we all seem to have agreed on a single twist in the filament in obviously the direction that creates a force pulling the cartridge away from the centre spindle. That gives the correct anti skate. Pray tell us more about your mystical setting

watercourse · « **Reply #74 on:** 23 Sep 2013, 06:00 pm »

Thanks vortrex. I had noticed that the factory mounting of the gasket did not place it directly above the center of the cup at all points. So, based on vortrex's experience, I have adjusted this closer to perfect. We'll see how this goes.
If it sounds worse vortrex, I'm coming over to harshly critique your ever-evolving system and call it derogatory names.

watercourse · « **Reply #75 on:** 23 Sep 2013, 10:47 pm »

OK, over the course of 4 LPs, although it still sounds magnificent, I have been chasing azimuth all over the place, it's not holding constant across even a single side. In on-the-fly adjustments, the filament sections at a certain point "jump" when they overcome friction from crossing over on each other suddenly, rather than gradually. This may be what rob400 may have been referring to originally. Thanks for welcoming me to your nightmare!

I think you all are in a conspiracy to make me over-think the setup of this table rather than have me go on about aligning the cart correctly anymore.

At least someone can't chime in that it's only the el-cheapo Simplex with this problem, both Amadeus and GTA also do this. I'm moving the grommet back to the original spot, off-center though it may be, and go on with one less variable to address.

And I just got word from Mr. P that the Simplex will never have an LTD retrofit, but that the only diff is the lowered center of gravity for the pivot point...

watercourse · « **Reply #76 on:** 23 Sep 2013, 11:54 pm »

... And now azimuth is staying put, with only the threat of adjusting the gasket again!

gagamut · « **Reply #77 on:** 24 Sep 2013, 12:49 pm »

Quote from: rob400 on 23 Sep 2013, 03:12 pm

Hi Sam. Surely the azimuth spindle per se isn't directional and we all seem to have agreed on a single twist in the filament in obviously the direction that creates a force pulling the cartridge away from the centre spindle. That gives the correct anti skate. Pray tell us more about your mystical setting

Hi,
No mystical setting(my english too bad may be you get wrong meaning

),just same you guys,

SteevA · « **Reply #78 on:** 27 Sep 2013, 01:41 am »

Quote from: watercourse on 23 Sep 2013, 10:47 pm

At least someone can't chime in that it's only the el-cheapo Simplex with this problem, both Amadeus and GTA also do this. I'm moving the grommet back to the original spot, off-center though it may be, and go on with one less variable to address.

As long as the golf ball does not touch the sides of the cup it does not matter if it is a bit off centre. It should be left to settle into a stable position under the adjustment collar before and azimuth adjustment is made. Suggest resting the stylus on a non-rotating record then going away for a few minutes. When you get back, and without otherwise touching the arm, adjust the azimuth.

I have found the azimuth to be off sometimes when I first place the stylus on the record. This is the wrong time to adjust it as your act of swinging the arm across can move the ball out from being directly under the adjustment collar and if this happens your azimuth will be out. It will quickly settle if left alone.

I have not noticed any evidence of the threads sticking to each other as the arm moves across the record.

Steve

gagamut · « **Reply #79 on:** 27 Sep 2013, 02:44 am »

Quote from: SteevA on 27 Sep 2013, 01:41 am

As long as the golf ball does not touch the sides of the cup it does not matter if it is a bit off centre. It should be left to settle into a stable position under the adjustment collar before and azimuth adjustment is made. Suggest resting the stylus on a non-rotating record then going away for a few minutes. When you get back, and without otherwise touching the arm, adjust the azimuth.

I have found the azimuth to be off sometimes when I first place the stylus on the record. This is the wrong time to adjust it as your act of swinging the arm across can move the ball out from being directly under the adjustment collar and if this happens your azimuth will be out. It will quickly settle if left alone.

I have not noticed any evidence of the threads sticking to each other as the arm moves across the record.

Steve

"As long as the golf ball does not touch the sides of the cup it does not matter if it is a bit off centre"

i think it is depend what cartridge you use ,it means 'FINE TUNE',is it right???

Sam