[medium jim]

Just thinking out loud, what if Magnepan offered a model that had an active bass panel with a built in amplifier?  It would add some oomph to the bottom end and make them more efficient and yet still have dipole bass.

Just thinking...

Jim

[rw@cn]

Please disregard.

[Davey]

There would be no change in efficiency unless the transducer itself was changed.  And "oomph" would not be increased either....assuming the same amplifier.

What it would do is "integrate" part of the system and not allow different amplifiers to be used to suit audiophile subjective tastes.

I don't see any up-side to it......but a few down-sides.

Cheers,

Dave.

[medium jim]

Dave:

Again, we are on the opposite side of the debate.  If you had an active/self amplified bass panel it would direct more wattage to the bass and would therefore make them more dynamic.  It would also take the load off of the mid/highs and this would mean less powerful amps would be able to drive them.

Only upsides if properly implemented in my eyes.

Jim

[SteveFord]

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. 
I believe it went something like "audiophiles hate having their amp choices made for them" or words to that effect.
Half the fun is screwing around with the system to find what works best for you; just look at all of the various types of amps that are used here by the members and how passionate they are about their choices and you'll see why Magnepan considered and rejected the idea.

[Davey]

Jim,

Let's make sure we're talking about the same thing here.

If your reference to "active bass panel" is just a bi-amp configuration then yes, that's a good way to go.  However, that's been done by Maggie users for decades, so I'm unsure what your proposal really is.  But you said "built in" amplifier?

Regarding "more efficiency":  Not physically possible.  The efficiency of the transducer is defined at construction and no amount of increased power, elimination of high-level crossover, bandwidth limiting, etc, etc, will increase the efficiency of the system.

"Oomph" is a subjective term and completely meaningless.  However, all other things being equal, if you changed amplifiers to one that has considerably more power, I would stipulate that more "oomph" might be the result.

Cheers,

Dave.

[medium jim]

Steve:

Maybe, maybe not, if Magnepan put in the amp as part of the bass panel and was only dedicated to the bottom 2 octaves, it could be a go.  Or make it an option.  It would take the place of the subwoofer in many systems. However, it might conflict with their DWM's.

Jim

[SteveFord]

It's a not unless something drastically changes with them.
I asked them a long time ago and that was the answer - N O.

[medium jim]

Magnepan makes wonderful speakers, so I guess it must have to do with what the cost to market would be. 

Jim

[jarcher]

If we're fishing for opinion's from prospective buyers - I wouldn't be interested.  Don't want the extra cost & complexity among other things. 

What I would like on a future 1.7 (1.8?) is to bring back the bi-wireability that the 1.6 had. Aside from potentially sounding better (at least it does on Totems speakers I owns), I could see potentially using something solid state on the low's & tube on the highs..........

[Davey]

Unless you're willing to get inside and reconfigure the system, there won't be any option for bi-wiring of the 1.7's.  It's a series crossover, so a single amp (and standard wiring) configuration is the only possible hookup.

Cheers,

Dave.

[medium jim]

Not fishing, just thinking out loud.  I agree that being able to biwire should be again.  However, it might have been taken away over the cost of warranty repairs if I'm not mistaken and or due to the new x/o's.

Dave:

You are right, many a user have done what I suggest, many have opted to go with subs, and there are those who are purist and enjoy them as they are.

Jim

[SteveFord]

Not that this has much to do with active bass panels but simply changing tubes in a preamp can have a significant impact on the amount of bass that they're capable of. 
You'll still need the amplification, of course, but they're not bass shy speakers by any means.  They all may not go down exceedingly low but what they can reproduce is very, very good sounding.

[Davey]

Steve,

It really won't.
Changing tubes might yield an EQ change with a more bass-tilted response, but it can't change the (maximum) capabilities of the drivers themselves.  As I noted for Jim, when the Maggie bass drivers roll off the factory assembly line the efficiency and SPL capabilities are defined and can't be improved upon.

The only way to change the sensitivity and/or SPL capability of the design would be to alter the motor structure in some way.  More magnets, stronger magnets, more wires cutting lines of force, etc, etc.  Even if you did improve sensitivity in this way, you'd trade off something else in the process.  There's no free lunch on any of this. 

Even if you were to widen the frame and create a larger front/back cancellation distance (another form of EQ) it wouldn't change the basic capability of the transducers.

Cheers,

Dave.

[medium jim]

Not that this has much to do with active bass panels but simply changing tubes in a preamp can have a significant impact on the amount of bass that they're capable of. 
You'll still need the amplification, of course, but they're not bass shy speakers by any means.  They all may not go down exceedingly low but what they can reproduce is very, very good sounding.

Steve:

I agree that changing tube or even capacitors can get the bass, but you hit it, they still need power to flesh it out on the panels.  I can with my setup without subs, but it really cuts to the quick and the bass with subs to me is still better. Now, if I had say 100 watts just for the bass on the panels and my tubes hitting the rest it would be a pretty picture, maybe.  I would still need subs to go below 35hz....

Jim

[jimdgoulding]

Not in their business, but I don't see enough of an upside to Magnepan. 

[medium jim]

Not in their business, but I don't see enough of an upside to Magnepan.

Jim:

You are probably right as it would be contra to all that has preceded sans the WVM's and the cost to the end user would be a consideration.  However, it surprises me that another planar maker hasn't (as far as I know).  Most go with Amped Coned Bass, which can be rather good, but there isn't the flexibility for placing the sub part of their panels logistically in a room. With Panel bass, it would be a less of an issue.

Jim

[Roger Gustavsson]

If you had an active/self amplified bass panel it would direct more wattage to the bass and would therefore make them more dynamic.  It would also take the load off of the mid/highs and this would mean less powerful amps would be able to drive them.

Only upsides if properly implemented in my eyes.

Jim

Regarding "more efficiency":  Not physically possible.  The efficiency of the transducer is defined at construction and no amount of increased power, elimination of high-level crossover, bandwidth limiting, etc, etc, will increase the efficiency of the system.

"Oomph" is a subjective term and completely meaningless.  However, all other things being equal, if you changed amplifiers to one that has considerably more power, I would stipulate that more "oomph" might be the result.

Cheers,

Dave.

However, it surprises me that another planar maker hasn't (as far as I know).  Most go with Amped Coned Bass, which can be rather good, but there isn't the flexibility for placing the sub part of their panels logistically in a room. With Panel bass, it would be a less of an issue.

Jim

First, the efficiency cannot easily be changed without loosing something else. Planar drivers in a dipole configuration does have limitations in producing bass, low bass. Increasing the radiating area is one of the options but it will be very expensive. You cannot force a Magneplanar-type of driver to high-SPL work with large amounts of power.

First, it does have a lot of power compression, distorsion in the bass increases quickly as the SPL raises. The smaller models have a lot of this.
 
Second, the diaphragm will hit the magnets even with rather few Watts injected.
 
Third, more power is not automaticly paired with "more oomph". Power amplifiers do sound different!

Fourth, you can skip the external low pass filters of the 3-ways and replace it with an active filter and run them bi-amped. It will increase the efficiency of the bass slightly, about 1.5 dB in the case of the MG 3.6. Still, it will not make them go any louder or convert them to disco speakers but you can use rather small power amplifiers. Believe me, it is not easy to make a really fullrange planar speaker!

Fith, if you are going to earn money from such speakers, the will be expensive. Distribution and setting them in most homes will be difficult. Sounds like a limited number of possible customers to me.

If you need more "oomph", add as many subwoofers you can (read Toole's Harman article on multiple bass) and let the Maggies from 80 or 120 Hz and upwards. If you have no wish to play below 30 Hz, try some Tympanis but they are awfully large.

[SteveFord]

I know that the 20.7s will pump out bass o'plenty.
My problem wasn't increasing the bass output, it was decreasing the output but I got that fixed.

I did ask Wendell about making a true planar subwoofer and he noted that the WAF of a monster bass panel would be pretty darned low so it wouldn't be worth doing from a manufacturer's standpoint.  Why make something that won't sell?
 

[jarcher]

Somehow I keep thinking that a high quality cone-based subwoofer is still going to be the best option for the indefinite future for maggie owner's who need / want more bass.  A separate subwoofer unit also allows more option for placement (whether to hide it or get the best sound out of it).  The last thing I think most folks want is an even larger panel to achieve more bass but that then needs to be accommodated in the house (or with the spouse). 

I like the fact that maggie unlike martin logan doesn't force the subwoofer choice on me. This let's them focus on what they do best - the planar part. Plenty of other co's dedicate themselves just to subs & do a great job (REL, Velodyne, etc).