[ragg987]

I have been using the SP3 for 4 months now, so thought it worth posting some feedback and observations, plus some suggestions for improvements.

Bottom line
The SP3 is the best sounding stereo preamp and surround processor I have owned for audio quality, brings a smile to my face every time I listen to music or watch movies. Well thought out features geared towards simplicity, however a few more setup options would be very welcome.

Set-up
The SP3 is in my main AV system, I use it 50/50 for music and video. Rather than listing my equipment (see profile if interested), let me focus on how I have set it up.

For stereo music, I tend to use 2.2 setup. The mains are set to small with 2 subwoofers in stereo mode, crossed over at 80Hz.

For video, I use multi-channel mode in a 5.2 configuration. Mains and surrounds are set to small and the 2 subwoofers are in stereo mode, crossed over at 80Hz.

The mains and surrounds are a conventional setup through the SP3, however the stereo sub-woofers are connected through the Aux-L and Aux-R outputs of the processor. I use the controls on the sub-woofers to set their cross-over, and to tune the delay (phase) and gain.

The subs have a single channel parametric equalizer which I have used to tame a nasty room mode at about 35Hz, giving me a relatively even response from about 15Hz upwards. I have boosted the volume at the sub by about 5dB (like a house curve - http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/96-house-curve-what-why-you-need-how-do.html), which gives very satisfying bass without being overkill.

I arrived at these settings through a slow process of trial-and-error combined with careful measurement and listening over a period of about 2 months. Measurements were made with a sound meter and microphone using the free Room EQ Wizard and a laptop to measure and analyse in room response.

Also, many thanks to Stan at Bryston who helped me to realise the potential of the SP3 in stereo sub mode. Super support from Bryston.

Listening impressions
Out of the box and as a direct replacement to my previous ADA HD Suite 7.1 processor, there was a worthwhile improvement in stereo – mainly that the music was sweeter and more life-like without being too smooth or analytical. The difference in multi-channel was less so. I was using a single sub in 2.1 or 5.1 mode at this point.

I then added a second sub in stereo and tuned the system, and I could not be happier. The improvement in bass has had a very positive effect on the whole listening experience. Even music with relatively low bass content sounds much better with stereo subs – the music really comes to life, more depth and much more like live music. Movies are also much more enjoyable – the ability of the SP3, once setup properly, has me hooked.

Changes I would like to see
Bryston have got the main things right, in my opinion. Here are some suggestions that would make my AV experience that bit nicer, in order of importance to me.

1.   Virtual inputs. I would like to be able to map a physical input to a logical input on the SP3. The current capability is based on the premise that we use single-purpose devices (i.e. DVD player connected to DVD input, CD-player to CD input etc). Multi-purpose devices are quite common now, so (for instance) an Oppo or HTPC can play DVD, CD and stream music. By providing virtual inputs, the single physical input can be mapped to multiple logical inputs, each of which can have its own settings for DSP, number of speakers, subwoofer, delays, triggers etc. The ADA HD Suite is a super example of how this could work.

2.   Finer control over speaker distance settings. This can only be adjusted in relatively large increments. Finer control (1”) would greatly assist with centering the soundstage.

3.   Ability to disable DSP modes and force pass-through based on input channels. I do not like 5.1 audio being expanded to 6.1 just because I have 6 speakers (according to a post by So There, this change is in the pipeline http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50270.msg1214105#msg1214105).

4.   Less light leakage. This has been a weak spot for Bryston with all amps and processors I have owned. Why must the LEDs and display be so bright? Spoils the black-out I like when viewing a movie. An option to keep them off at all times, even if changing volume, plus shorter time-outs.

5.   Improved control over the Aux-L and Aux-R. Delays, gain, speaker type (small, full, sub).

6.   Improved USB input . Would like to see a quality asynchronous USB capable of high rate input frequencies.

7.   Web interface for setup and control is clunky. On an Android device, the volume control does not function (tested with Android 2.3 and 4.1).

[m00nhawk]

Very nice review.


Out of curiosity, did you try two (or more) subs in an x.1 configuration?


I'm running three subs in x.1, but they are all equidistant from the sweet spot   I cannot set infinite phase in all three, I'm stuck with 0/180 in two of them, so setting delays independently is not possible, or extremely difficult. 


I am quite happy with the result, however.   

[So There]

Ragg, your review and recommendations are quite stimulating, and m00nhawk, your comments on the subs are on-point as regards .2 vs. .1 sub channels. I agree with your recommendations for FW features. It puzzles me that the SP3 has defined inputs rather than programmable ones. I have an Oppo 105, and it would be nice to have the flexibility you suggest.

I completely agree that the sound of the SP3 is glorious.

I found Stan to be very expert and generous, extremely interested in meetings users' needs, so it may be worth emailing him directly to let him know of your interests: Stan Bleszynski <sbleszynski@bryston.com>

I just have a few miles on my SP3 and haven't had time to configure it completely. I want to try a 7.2 config with stereo subs, using the Aux outputs, and compare this to daisy-chained subs in a .1 configuration. The time-alignment issues are as m00nhawk states. My Velodyne DD15s do have full control sets, including phase, crossover, and EQ, but the challenge is still "sub"stantial (hiss). I'd be extremely interested in learning more about the process you used to calibrate your subs, ragg.

Thanks, gents, for these valuable posts.

Rich
____________
Whiney Napa Valley

[ragg987]

Out of curiosity, did you try two (or more) subs in an x.1 configuration?

Thanks for the kind words, m00nhawk.

Two subs in mono is on my to-do list, however it has taken quite a lot of effort to get to this point and I am not ready to go through it again. I might try a shortcut method at some point - i.e. downmix the stereo output to mono and feed the results to the 2 subs.

My subs have variable phase, so it was easier to dial in. In your case, have you tried changing the crossover point so that you can minimise the phase differences? Phase shifts with frequency. Of course this will be a compromise as optimum crossover point is also about speaker capability and room modes. For me, one (potential) advantage of stereo subs is that I can change crossover to a higher level without having to worry about localisation of the bass - it is in stereo in any case.

Rajive

[ragg987]

I'd be extremely interested in learning more about the process you used to calibrate your subs, ragg

Rich, appreciate your comments - it is not a simple process, but having been through it I am happy I persevered. It took me approx 2 days - first attempt took one day, result sounded poor, then I tried again. My family thinks I am mad.

To summarise the steps:
1. Get REW and appropriate equipment (SPL, mic, cables etc) installed and familiarise yourself with it. Be prepared for a steep learning curve!
2. Find best place for your subs. I did this by putting one sub in my listening position and then taking quick REW reading with mic at likely sub locations (easier to move the mic rather than the sub). Look at measurements and find locations with smoothest response. For me, this worked out as being on either side of the mains in a symmetrical configuration. I did not attempt anything other than front subs as my listening room is also our lounge, so limits my options.
3. Measure response for both subs and both mains separately. Defeat all bass management for this.
4. Evaluate graphs and try to guess a good place to crossover. REW also gives you indication of phase at that frequency.
5. Set crossover on SP3 and on subs and measure overall response.
6. Tweak other sub parameters (phase, subsonic filter, EQ and slope, limiter, damping, volume - the Ryhtmik sub has a lot of flexibiility). Measure and evaluate as you go.
7. Repeat steps 4 to 6 until it you are happy with the result.

Sounds simple, but takes a lot of patience and multiple iterations to get it right. I then listened to music I am familiar with to tweak and settle on something I was happy with. Still doing this a bit.

Rajive

[So There]

Thanks for your kind reply, Rajive:

I appreciate your advice and detailed procedure. It does look like a full weekend project at the least. Luckily, like your subs, the Velodyne DD15s provide considerable control of their parameters, and they do an auto-EQ which one can (and generally should) tweak.

FYI, the onscreen controls include the following:
- Auto-eQ/Self-eQ
- Graphic or Parametric Equalizer controls for room EQ
- Adjustable (15Hz - 199Hz) low-pass crossover (defeatable)
- multiple staggered low pass crossovers (6dB/octave, initial to 36dB/octave, ultimate) - Adjustable (15Hz - 35Hz) subsonic filter (defeatable)
- Multiple staggered subsonic filters (12dB/octave, initial to 24dB/octave, ultimate)
- Variable volume control
- Adjustable phase control (0° - 180° in 15° increments)
- Selectable polarity (+/-)

Your point on patience is well taken, Rajive, as this is requisite for most things worthwhile. I will remember your maxim as I undertake this project. Thanks very much for sharing your expertise and experience.

Rich
______________
Whiney Napa Valley

[ragg987]

Rich, seems your sub has all the knobs you might need. Auto-EQ sounds like it has potential to make it less sub-stantial ! Do post your findings - I am no expert, just willing to experiment and test and always willing to learn from others.

I am sure you are aware, I've read that the SP3's lack of EQ was a deliberate design decision and that Bryston think it may be counter-productive http://www.hometheater.com/content/bryston-sp3-surround-processor-and-9b-sstsup2-amplifier. A bit of EQ in the sub range works for me - there are no specific acoustic treatments in my listening room (need to move home to have that option).

[James Tanner]

Also folks - try using more than one Sub rather than one large(r) Sub - it really helps smooth out the frequency response in the room.

james

[So There]

You're absolutely right, James. A second sub made a huge difference in my room, not only in terms of smoothing the response but in terms of power and definition.

Rich
______________
Whiney Napa Valley

[BrystonFan]

2 subs in symmetry to the mains or based on best frequency response to the room?

[James Tanner]

2 subs in symmetry to the mains or based on best frequency response to the room?

Typically a corner and a half way point on any wall for a .1 channel - symmetrical on either side of the mains if Stereo setup usually.

I have 4 subs in my theater room - 2 in the back corners and 2 at the half way point on the left wall.

james

[m00nhawk]

2 subs in symmetry to the mains or based on best frequency response to the room?

The latter, ideally.  That way, each sub can compensate for the room modes of the other. 


This is why i prefer mono subs, regardless of how many.  With stereo, if you have a null with your left channel, the right channel might cover that frequency, but if the right channel doesn't carry that information at the same time, it does you no good.  I hope that makes some sort of sense.


FWIW, I have three subs, and I use an Anti-mode 1033-s for cheap and easy EQ.  I still need to do some tweaking, but it works great.

[James Tanner]

The latter, ideally.  That way, each sub can compensate for the room modes of the other. 


This is why i prefer mono subs, regardless of how many.  With stereo, if you have a null with your left channel, the right channel might cover that frequency, but if the right channel doesn't carry that information at the same time, it does you no good.  I hope that makes some sort of sense.


FWIW, I have three subs, and I use an Anti-mode 1033-s for cheap and easy EQ.  I still need to do some tweaking, but it works great.

I agree multiple subs solves many room node problems and eliminates the need for subwoofer or processor EQ.

James

[dminches]

This is what I like about the Vandersteen 5As. They each have a built in sub. And, in addition to them I have a Velodyne DD15.   I realize the DD15 is the only sub to carry the LFE information, but there is also tons of bass emanating from the other subs.

[ragg987]

2 subs in symmetry to the mains or based on best frequency response to the room?

In my case, it is both. Symmetrical to the mains (on "outside" of the mains), and this also provides best response in my room given that I am limited to using the front wall for the subs.

[ragg987]

This is why i prefer mono subs, regardless of how many.  With stereo, if you have a null with your left channel, the right channel might cover that frequency, but if the right channel doesn't carry that information at the same time, it does you no good.  I hope that makes some sort of sense.

That makes sense, I will have to switch my subs to mono and see if there is a difference. Shall report back.

Have you tried mono vs stereo subs?

[m00nhawk]

That makes sense, I will have to switch my subs to mono and see if there is a difference. Shall report back.

Have you tried mono vs stereo subs?

No...Too hard to do with my setup, and what I said earlier.  I cross over at 80Hz, so I doubt I'd get any benefit anyway...

[dminches]

Hopefully this isn't too off topic...

How does the LFE information differ from the straight bass?  If I set my mains and surrounds to large, the sub only gets the LFE information.  Does it not get any bass. so to speak?

[ragg987]

If I set my mains and surrounds to large, the sub only gets the LFE information.  Does it not get any bass. so to speak?

That is correct - large speakers means "normal" bass is not redirected to the mains or surrounds. SP3 also has a Xtra Bass feature - I believe that will route "normal" bass to the sub, as well as to the large speakers.

[James Tanner]

Hopefully this isn't too off topic...

How does the LFE information differ from the straight bass?  If I set my mains and surrounds to large, the sub only gets the LFE information.  Does it not get any bass. so to speak?

Hi

In the mixing studio all the speakers are set to Large. - the .1 channel only gets Low frequency information that the recording engineer uses to add "Effects" to the sound track. So gun shots, car crashes etc. are reinforced by adding the extra energy to the soundtrack. It is ONLY an EFFECTs channel and does not contain any other bass information.

Then THX came along and said most people do not have large enough speakers to provide good bass output so their solution was to standardize in home surround systems that all speakers should be set to Small and the bass energy below 80Hz was directed to the .1 channel. So the .1 channel became a subwoofer as well as an effects channel.

I am a believer in trying to playback the soundtrack as the recording engineer intended so if your speakers are capable set them all to Large.

James