[medium jim]

I do have a square room and what worked for me is some diffusion on the front wall between the panels and furniture on the side walls at the first reflection point. 

Jim

[josh358]

Again,  thanks for all the good information.  It's given me a good insight.

I've got a couple more questions. 

First, could some of you with the small rooms tell me what you're using for amplification.  There's been some general comments, but if I could get an idea of brands and models that have been used successfully, it would be helpful.  I've read a lot about amps and Maggies, but its almost always for larger rooms.  I went through a lot of different amps before I settled on NAD, but then heard the Arcam matched with the MG-12's at the dealer.  I've had an Arcam since and would stick with that brand unless I find something better.  It seems to work well for my ears and listening style.  Of course, I'm listening to boxes now.

Secondly, my room is 9x11, but one entire wall is a closet and could easily be taken out.  The room would, actualy be 11.5x11.5 without the closet.  I think I've read somewhere that a square room is not so good, so not sure if that would be a good move.

Thanks, John

That's a hard one. You'll get a somewhat bigger image in a larger room, and a bit less coloration. But as you say, it will probably degrade bass smoothness. So I'm not really sure how to answer, which being the case, I'd probably leave things the same unless there's another reason to enlarge the room. Diffusion behind the speakers at the first reflection point can make a room acoustically bigger in terms of imaging. If you find yourself sitting within a foot or two of the rear wall, you may want to add absorption there as well.

I don't think it's really possible to make amp recommendations that will work for everyone, since people listen at different levels.

[Rclark]

I listen at low to normal levels mostly. I've had three different amps, two small ones, with a whole variety pack of different power supplies and batteries. But the greatest results are from my big Ncores, which are just under 500 watts each into the MMG's. I would never go back to a small amp for these speakers. With Ncores you get it all, super delicate audiophile performance, top of the line bass quality on the MMG, and never ever clipping or asking too much of the amp. Of course, you can also go really, really, really loud with no losses, but the best part is the performance you get when the volume is low.

[medium jim]

Josh:

Correct, it does make the room acoustically seem larger.  You are also correct that if the listening position is near the back wall that some absorption would be helpful, it smooths out the low end response.

Jim

[Johnaki]

I listen at low to normal levels mostly. I've had three different amps, two small ones, with a whole variety pack of different power supplies and batteries. But the greatest results are from my big Ncores, which are just under 500 watts each into the MMG's. I would never go back to a small amp for these speakers. With Ncores you get it all, super delicate audiophile performance, top of the line bass quality on the MMG, and never ever clipping or asking too much of the amp. Of course, you can also go really, really, really loud with no losses, but the best part is the performance you get when the volume is low.

I've read some about the Ncores.  Did you DIY these?  Can you explain your set up a little more.? It sounds very intriguing.

Thanks,  John

[Rclark]

Sure, I had mine built by someone as they are DIY only and the only other way to get these is to pay $7-11,000 for the full retail models of the NC1200. They're basically a class d amp that competes at the top level of amps in any price range and any topology, and have set quite a few performance benchmarks like noise floor and distortion levels. Extremely beautiful sound is the result, pure and holographic. They bring out the absolute ultimate in the music as you only get what is presented on the medium, they don't add any flavors or colorations, which I like a LOT. Just a pure amplifier, really.

A lot of users here like to pair them with tube preamps to get that "best of both worlds" appeal, if you're going to put a tube anywhere, I guess it makes most sense to put it before the amps and let something like the Ncore do the rest. Right now I'm just using a battery powered LDR, which is just a fancy volume control, I like it a lot, very transparent.

I feel like they are an "ultimate" amp for the MMG, and are $2000 built.

My MMG's are also fully modded by Peter Gunn, so I get a different sonic presentation than regular MMG's.

[JBrahms]

I had MMGs in a 12 x 11 room.  They "worked" but I would estimate that I was getting 70 percent of what they had to offer, which still might be better than many other speakers would do. This was before I got into room treatments.

They worked better in a 14 by10 room, by a pretty large margin.

FWIW, the 15 x 11 room is 66 percent larger than your room, so while both are small, yours is much smaller.

You might want to post in the room acoustics group for advice on the extensive room treatment you'll likely need.  The guys there are really great.  Good luck.

[medium jim]

I humbly disagree that you will get better advice in the acoustic circle as this circle is chock full of dedicated Maggie users and have been there and done that.

The first step is to get your Maggie's, and then relate any problems you might have and I'm rather confident that you will get the proper advice right here.

Jim

[jk@home]

I had MMGs in a 12 x 11 room.  They "worked" but I would estimate that I was getting 70 percent of what they had to offer, which still might be better than many other speakers would do. This was before I got into room treatments.

They worked better in a 14 by10 room, by a pretty large margin.

FWIW, the 15 x 11 room is 66 percent larger than your room, so while both are small, yours is much smaller.

You might want to post in the room acoustics group for advice on the extensive room treatment you'll likely need.  The guys there are really great.  Good luck.

Yeah, Magnepan on their website recommends a 10-12 MS delay off the walls from the first reflection, which equates to something like 10 to 12 or more feet. So for the rear wave to go 10', the speaker has to be 5' from the front wall.

One good thing about the MMGs is you can sit real close to them to get a decent mix. I sit 7' from mine (in a 12 x 15 room), but use a desk chair on wheels, so sometimes scoot even closer.

To the OP, do the MMG trial audition. Magnepan will ship them to your house, if you don't like, just ship them back.

[Rclark]

I'm nearfield too and I wouldn't trade this presentation for anything at this point. Love love love Maggies all day. When you get some good material going it's mesmerizing. Am looking forward to taking things further though.

[BruceSB]

If you want to think outside the (maggie) square I am running full range electrostats in a room only marginally bigger with great success.
My room is slightly more than 12 feet by 10 feet with a ceiling less than 8 feet.
Something else to consider.
Regards
Bruce

[jk@home]

And there's also Hawthorne Audio. Not planars, but they are coaxial dipoles. I'm checking them out myself. 

http://hawthorneaudio.us/

[medium jim]

I think there is some over thinking going on.  I have a 16x15x8.5' room and have 2.5's which are  5'11" tall and they are sounding mighty fine and not at all cramped.  They would sound just as nice in a bigger room, or even a slightly smaller one.

With planars, it is "placement, placement, placement".  If there is enough room in the room to get them off of the walls, they will be fine.

Jim

[JBrahms]

One thing to consider is that you've gone on a Corvette forum and asked "should I buy a Corvette?". The responses will tend to be positive.

As a former Corvette owner I just politely explained that you might instead go on a car forum and ask "which car fits my garage and lifestyle the best?". Or, if you've already bought the Corvette, you might ask "how can I cram a Corvette into my tiny garage?"

If that's overthinking the issue, well, call me guilty

[josh358]

One thing to consider is that you've gone on a Corvette forum and asked "should I buy a Corvette?". The responses will tend to be positive.

As a former Corvette owner I just politely explained that you might instead go on a car forum and ask "which car fits my garage and lifestyle the best?". Or, if you've already bought the Corvette, you might ask "how can I cram a Corvette into my tiny garage?"

If that's overthinking the issue, well, call me guilty

Very true, although that raises the interesting question of whether the benefits of dipoles (for those of us who like dipoles, and I think we know who we are) still hold in a small space. The performance of any speaker suffers in a small space -- bass becomes uneven and first reflections arrive too soon. But boxes and dipoles do react differently.

Among the advantages of dipoles in a small space, less excitation of bass modes, no problems with floor and ceiling reflections (in the case of full-height line sources), and less energy dumped to the sides, meaning that they can be used close to a wall. They can also be used in some cases in the Rooze configuration, that is, edge-on in a "V", which dramatically increases the acoustical size of the space.

Among the disadvantages, the fact that the drivers are laterally offset (of course, the drivers in boxes are vertically offset, which also smears the image), the fact that they tend to be big, the fact that they can be too bass-heavy in a small room requiring equalization, and the fact that the floor standers have to be several feet out from the front wall while boxes can produce acceptable (though far from ideal) results against the front wall.

Of course, Jim would say that that's overthinking and he'd be right. In practice, I prefer dipoles in small spaces, simply because I like dipoles. And really, if you're a dipole type, you're going to hear boxes and say, "Oh, yeah, that's nice, it does that well, but why doesn't it sound real?" The little Monsoons on my computer are less than a foot from the wall behind them, but still manage to produce a better image than boxes would, without the resonant colorations of an enclosure. Also, in practice, a small space would be a good candidate for the on-walls. Mark Winey says that the on-walls are what he recommends to customers who have space problems. I have the feeling that they're an underutilized resource -- people tend to buy them for dual use home theater/music systems, but where space is limited they can be a good option for music-only systems as well.

[SteveFord]

Okay, Guilty!

I never thought about the on walls - they're kind of the forgotten speakers, aren't they?

[josh358]

Okay, Guilty!

I never thought about the on walls - they're kind of the forgotten speakers, aren't they?

To Wendell's great frustration.

I think part of the problem is that dealers don't show them, so we really don't have much experience with them. I try to mention them as a possibility, but it isn't the same as if you can say "Oh, yeah, I  heard them and it's what I'd do in your room." (I did hear them at Magnepan, but only as part of Tri Center, not on their own.)

Maybe Wendell should send you a pair to try out? You have experience with a wide range of current models and could report back on how they stack up.

[SteveFord]

I think the only ones that I heard were the MMG-Ws which were okay with a sub but really sounded good with some PSB Alphas as rear speakers.  THAT was a great sounding combination in a small room.

That's what gave me the idea to put my MMGs up on hinges, truth be told.

[Johnaki]

Now we're getting somewhere. 

In my original post I mentioned that my favorite dealer set up a demo of a couple of MC-1's and a small REL sub.  This was a few years ago before the Maggie bass panels were available.  That was the epiphany for me.  It was the moment I decided I would have Maggies at some point.  He didn't have the Maggies on the wall.  He had them mounted on stands.  I seemed to remember something like this on the Maggie website.  I went back and looked and found that they say if you have a "shoe box" size room the best place for the MC-1's are on the side walls 4-6 ft. from the front wall.  I can do that in my room and still have 7.5 feet to the back wall.

Now that they have the bass panels, it could be that the MC-1's on the side walls with a bass panel would be just the ticket in my room.

[SteveFord]

There's nothing to say you can't get some hinges and have the MMGs swing out from the side walls.
Mine are set up on the wrong wall so there's only around 2' - 3' behind the wall but that's what I have to work with; the room where the MMGs were supposed to go is the dog's room (some battles you win, some battles turn out a draw).
Davey suspended his MMGs from the ceiling and as Wendell said, it doesn't make any difference to the sound.  Get your ears around the center of the panel when you listen and you'll be good to go.