[topround]

Just thought I would throw this out for others to chime in.

I have found in my limited experience that MC cartridges like to see a step up transformer do the stepup.
Having experimented with a few devices I have settled on using Dave Slagles silver wound stepups. They are 20:1 for use with my Lyra cartridge. These are expensive stepups, but even using modest stepups I have found the stepup transformers adds a sense of dimensionality that an active device just does not. Of course core material and windings make a huge difference, but I still find the SUT to be a great way to stepup a voltage for use with MC carts.

Vinyl is crazy in that there are so many ways to make it sound great or not so great, it is tweaky, and requires a lexicon all to itself, to explain what is going on. It seems complicated but it really isn't.

Stepup transformers are one of those  tweaky crazy devices that are required, and can also make all the difference in the world.

I prefer a MM phono pre. This allows me to stepup the voltage anyway I desire.
Phono preamps with all sorts of adjustability certainly are convenient, but you are married to what transformers or resistors or gain device the designer chose to use. When using an expensive cartridge, and you have that much skin in the game, do you want the phono preamp designer limiting your choices? The best Phono pre I have heard was the Ypsilon which is an LCR which is only MM. It requires a stepup device of some sort.
Then we get into the game of loading a cartridge, which is a whole nuther world!

Crazy but fun


mike

[vortrex]

Totally agree with you on the SUT's.  I made a post before wondering why more people don't use them.  It really does something magical.  I've used the Auditorium 23 and now the Jensen in my Zesto.

[topround]

The Zesto is very nice!
Heard it many times and having one over for the weekend! (Vinyl rave this Sat.)

I think most people think .Hey I bought a (fill in the blank) phono pre it cost(fill in the blank), and they are done.
And maybe they are. But there is so much more out there. In fact you limit yourself by sticking with what was given to you.
Let's face it , if you use MC carts then you have to stepup, if you choose to use a SUT then the options out there offer soooo much.

Really good cartridges are expensive, and they are usually mounted on expensive arms. mounted on expensive tables, after all that expense, it only makes sense to look into great SUTs because they can do so much.

[orientalexpress]

I agree,i Love my step up,trying different step up with different cartridge  ,currently have 4 step-up ,Peerless 4722 by BoB,Hasimotor HM3,Denon AU 320 and Empire step up RCA Plug.

[slbender]

Just thought I would throw this out for others to chime in.

I have found in my limited experience that MC cartridges like to see a step up transformer do the stepup.
Having experimented with a few devices I have settled on using Dave Slagles silver wound stepups. They are 20:1 for use with my Lyra cartridge. These are expensive stepups, but even using modest stepups I have found the stepup transformers adds a sense of dimensionality that an active device just does not. Of course core material and windings make a huge difference, but I still find the SUT to be a great way to stepup a voltage for use with MC carts.

Vinyl is crazy in that there are so many ways to make it sound great or not so great, it is tweaky, and requires a lexicon all to itself, to explain what is going on. It seems complicated but it really isn't.

Stepup transformers are one of those  tweaky crazy devices that are required, and can also make all the difference in the world.

I prefer a MM phono pre. This allows me to stepup the voltage anyway I desire.
Phono preamps with all sorts of adjustability certainly are convenient, but you are married to what transformers or resistors or gain device the designer chose to use. When using an expensive cartridge, and you have that much skin in the game, do you want the phono preamp designer limiting your choices? The best Phono pre I have heard was the Ypsilon which is an LCR which is only MM. It requires a stepup device of some sort.
Then we get into the game of loading a cartridge, which is a whole nuther world!

Crazy but fun


mike

Well I've never used a MC cartridge for the following reasons:

1)  Never owned any.

2)  Tracking of most MC's is usually 3 g. which is enough tons of force to wipe the record after two or three plays.

3)  Use of transformers into the MM input gives normal RIAA Eq. that can't be bypassed, but the impedances seen forward affect the frequency response depending how badly or goodly the MC Cartridge is loaded.  Most MC's are supposed to be loaded with 100 ohms, instead of 47K ohms, if I recall from some 30 years back.

4)  Don't have any MC level inputs, modern stuff doesn't even have MM phono inputs.

Still, Mike, if I get the drift of what you're saying, maybe I should hook up some small shielded transformers, connect up my MM cartridge(s) and turntable, and try that into my normal PAS-3x Preamp, or my slightly modified PAS-3x (both use 1960's Telefunken 12AX7 tubes) or one of many transistor preamps.  However, since the PAS is tubes, it has a wide overload capability, and I think I once measured a PAS as putting out over 30 volts P-P before clipping, then I'd get the so-called advantages of "Input Transformers" and none of the Moving Coil Cartridge "minuses".  Anything close to 1:1, or between  1:1 and 1:4 or 4:1 would probably work. Hooked up after the PAS could be any half decent receiver, Mosfet Amp, ULT Amp, SET Amp, etc. and usual speakers system.

So does this sound like a good idea?  Anybody ever try this?  Chirp in with suggestions!

-Steven

[BobRex]

Well I've never used a MC cartridge for the following reasons:

1)  Never owned any.

2)  Tracking of most MC's is usually 3 g. which is enough tons of force to wipe the record after two or three plays.

3)  Use of transformers into the MM input gives normal RIAA Eq. that can't be bypassed, but the impedances seen forward affect the frequency response depending how badly or goodly the MC Cartridge is loaded.  Most MC's are supposed to be loaded with 100 ohms, instead of 47K ohms, if I recall from some 30 years back.

4)  Don't have any MC level inputs, modern stuff doesn't even have MM phono inputs.

Still, Mike, if I get the drift of what you're saying, maybe I should hook up some small shielded transformers, connect up my MM cartridge(s) and turntable, and try that into my normal PAS-3x Preamp, or my slightly modified PAS-3x (both use 1960's Telefunken 12AX7 tubes) or one of many transistor preamps.  However, since the PAS is tubes, it has a wide overload capability, and I think I once measured a PAS as putting out over 30 volts P-P before clipping, then I'd get the so-called advantages of "Input Transformers" and none of the Moving Coil Cartridge "minuses".  Anything close to 1:1, or between  1:1 and 1:4 or 4:1 would probably work. Hooked up after the PAS could be any half decent receiver, Mosfet Amp, ULT Amp, SET Amp, etc. and usual speakers system.

So does this sound like a good idea?  Anybody ever try this?  Chirp in with suggestions!

-Steven

Some of your premises are off, really off.

2) Many modern MCs track at under 2g.  I track my Van Den Huls at 1.5g with no mistracking.

3)Many MC transformers can load the cartridge side at 100 ohm or less.  The loading rules for a transformer suggest the primary should by at least 10X the coil's resistance, that's easy to do with a good transformer.   Some designers do suggest a 47K load, and at least one highly regarded designer (Keith Herron) suggests an "infinite" input impedence at the phono stage.  The idead that an MC must be loaded at 100 ohm is completely fallacious, some like that load, some like higher loads, some like lower loads. 

[SET Man]

Well I've never used a MC cartridge for the following reasons:

1)  Never owned any.

2)  Tracking of most MC's is usually 3 g. which is enough tons of force to wipe the record after two or three plays.

3)  Use of transformers into the MM input gives normal RIAA Eq. that can't be bypassed, but the impedances seen forward affect the frequency response depending how badly or goodly the MC Cartridge is loaded.  Most MC's are supposed to be loaded with 100 ohms, instead of 47K ohms, if I recall from some 30 years back.

4)  Don't have any MC level inputs, modern stuff doesn't even have MM phono inputs.

Still, Mike, if I get the drift of what you're saying, maybe I should hook up some small shielded transformers, connect up my MM cartridge(s) and turntable, and try that into my normal PAS-3x Preamp, or my slightly modified PAS-3x (both use 1960's Telefunken 12AX7 tubes) or one of many transistor preamps.  However, since the PAS is tubes, it has a wide overload capability, and I think I once measured a PAS as putting out over 30 volts P-P before clipping, then I'd get the so-called advantages of "Input Transformers" and none of the Moving Coil Cartridge "minuses".  Anything close to 1:1, or between  1:1 and 1:4 or 4:1 would probably work. Hooked up after the PAS could be any half decent receiver, Mosfet Amp, ULT Amp, SET Amp, etc. and usual speakers system.

So does this sound like a good idea?  Anybody ever try this?  Chirp in with suggestions!

-Steven

Hey!

   Man! "...some 30 years back" Have you ever heard of High-output MC cart? And most new MC including higho-output one are tracking at 2gm or less these days.

  How do I know? Well, I'm using one right now Benz Micro ACE HO with output of 2.5mv and 1.8gm tracking force. Feeding my MM phono pre. OK, I did changed the loading from 47K to 1K for it.

   OK, back to the regular program of low output and SUT.

Take care,
Buddy

[TheChairGuy]

Steven/slbender,

Tracking force of the more modern (not DL300-series) Denon's would make you blush...all under 1.5g and the higher end low output offerings recommended are of 1.2-1.3g. 

It's the lightest I'm aware of since ADC's venerable, high output, moving iron X and ZLM series decades ago (which I own and adore)

John

[neobop]

I had a Cotter back in the day.  I think it was called a Varion.  You could change the impedance by re-soldering little jumpers inside. Used it with a Kisiki mostly, but it was too hi-fi for me.  The Kisiki was romantic enough without the ultra-dynamics of a transformer. It seemed like some subtleties got lost.  Maybe it would have been good for opera or something, but I don't listen to much of that.  I'd rather spend money on a better MC phono stage, and that's what I did. 

A few designers have gone to great lengths to eliminate output transformers from their tube amps, why?  You could say it's not the same thing, and it isn't.  It's worse. It's an output transformer on your cartridge.
IMO a SUT is only better than a crappy hi gain stage. Admittedly, there are many. It's a lot easier to make a half decent MM stage, and especially with tubes - heaven forbid a solid state hi gain stage in a purist tube pre, LOL. I can't see spending lots of money on multiple SUTs when you could have bought a great hi gain pre with that same money. It's not the '70s.  But that's just my opinion.  Whatever makes you happy.
neo

[mgsboedmisodpc2]

"Stepup Transformers. What do you use? "
a Denon AU-300LC
So how woud I change the primary loading  from 47K to 100 for my 103R which "will provide a little less top-end and deeper bass"

[neobop]

"Stepup Transformers. What do you use? "
a Denon AU-300LC
So how woud I change the primary loading  from 47K to 100 for my 103R which "will provide a little less top-end and deeper bass"

Hi,
Maybe this article will help you figure it out:
http://www.vinylengine.com/step-ups-and-mc-cartridges.shtml

neo

[neobop]

There was another thread on this subject recently. Some more opinions:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=111998.0

Obviously people have different and varied results.  J. Carr, on another forum made a case against SUTs. Mikey Fremer loved some tube pre with built in tranny ($26K).
neo

[topround]

A phono preamp is basically a RIAA filter. And it is MM. 47k.
What makes a phono preamp a MC phono? well the gain stage of course!
What you choose for your gain stage is your choice...or not, if you have built in MC gain stage then you usually use that! Of course.
But you could use the MM section and stepup with stepup transformers.

That is the gist of this thread. Those of us that have forgone the gain stages in our phono pre's or are using MM stages with stepups.

Of course it is inconvenient to use stepups when our preamps have it all built in, but hey, we spin vinyl, if we wanted convenoence we would do digital. Right? I am sure there are those that understand what I am talking about..

Remember all our gear is built to a price point, every cap, resistor, inductor, choke, wire, was a cost consideration at some point in the design. The usual markup is 5X, so a preamp that costs 5K usually costs about 1K to build, a 5k phono preamp with built in stepups is not going to have expensive stepups. That is not to say they are not good, but when you go simple you can really tailor your sound.

Mike Fremer uses a very expensive phono preamp that is just MM. And he uses great stepups. The results can be mind blowing.
The quality of the transformer varies, and so do the results.

[BobM]

I use a Hagerman Piccolo that I have modded and upgraded. It powers my Transfiguration Temper LOMC cartridge into a Hagerman Trumpet MM phono stage (but you know this already Mike).

Is it the quietest step up/head amp? No, but it has lots of adjustability for loading and gain (I need 26db boost for the .2mv output of the Temper) and has rediculous performance for its cost. I would love to compare it against the better Bob's devices or Slagel's or Jensen's. I have heard it vs the venerable TX103 transformers and thought it was better all around. More dynamic, better soundstaging and imaging, better bass and transparency.

And I have pride of building it myself and experimenting with different caps and resistors in the signal path to tune it to my ear. Not something that can be done with a transformer.

[orientalexpress]

I use a Hagerman Piccolo that I have modded and upgraded. It powers my Transfiguration Temper LOMC cartridge into a Hagerman Trumpet MM phono stage (but you know this already Mike).

Is it the quietest step up/head amp? No, but it has lots of adjustability for loading and gain (I need 26db boost for the .2mv output of the Temper) and has rediculous performance for its cost. I would love to compare it against the better Bob's devices or Slagel's or Jensen's. I have heard it vs the venerable TX103 transformers and thought it was better all around. More dynamic, better soundstaging and imaging, better bass and transparency.

And I have pride of building it myself and experimenting with different caps and resistors in the signal path to tune it to my ear. Not something that can be done with a transformer.

I Build my own Randall/Edwin Yang design  Phono pre with adjustability for loading and with 3 inputs for 3 different turntables  ,one of the best phono pre i heard.


lapsan

[neobop]

A phono preamp is basically a RIAA filter. And it is MM. 47k.
What makes a phono preamp a MC phono? well the gain stage of course!

Sorry to tread on your thread, but that's incorrect.  A phono preamp is a gain stage, like a microphone preamp only with RIAA equalization.  Maybe that's what you meant?  Most MM stages have around 40dB of gain, but not all.  Some built in stages like in ARC preamps might have enough gain for a 1mV cart, possibly even lower output.  Generally a MC stage will add about 20dB.
47K is the de facto MM loading, but users vary from about 20K to 100K.   4 channel carts were loaded at 100K.
neo 

[cheap-Jack]

Hi..

(1) Some of your premises are off, really off.

(2) The idead that an MC must be loaded at 100 ohm is completely fallacious, some like that load, some like higher loads, some like lower loads. 

(1) Take it easy, my friend. The poster already stated upfront he never used any MC cartridge.

(2) So what loading Z of a MC cartridge you think would give you the best out of it?

Likewise, I never use any MC cartridgs as I am yet to be impressed sonically by any MC cartridges, having heard Ortofon older models many years back, which gave me pretty unnatural brightness of the strings. Plus auditioned then the latest & probably most expensive MC cartridge on this planet todate:- Audio Note Japan I0-M 100% wound with LONG aged pure silver wire tracked at 1.5gm, with its matching AN KSL-SFz silver wound transformer. Did I lost sleep with this suuuuper expensive Audio Note MC cartridge? No, I did not.

The 'pain' of using MC cartridge is to step up its 0.12mV or so low low O/P voltage to standard phono-preamp. Transformer itself get tons of shortcoming including hi & lo frequency drop off & phase distortion.

Only one phono-preamp so far pretty impressed me driven by a MC cartridge was Vacuum State (Swiss made) flagship model (tagged for USD24,900), using zip stepup transformer.

It is very simple (even to a DIYer's veiwpoint) using a one-single FET active stage to boost up the signal to
direct drive the triode RIAA stage. Cheapie yet sounded superb!

Those who love MC sound have fun with matching stepup transformers!

Me? Still a no-name MC cartridge driving my vintage PAS-2 phono-preamp (after my super-rebuilt). I love its sound over many many branadname modern designs with or without MC I/Ps.

Listening is believing, my friends. Brandnames do NOT warrant any superb sound at all.

c-J

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

Well I've never used a MC cartridge for the following reasons:

1)  Never owned any.

...Maybe I should hook up some small shielded transformers, connect up my MM cartridge(s) and turntable, and try that into my normal PAS-3x Preamp, or my slightly modified PAS-3x (both use 1960's Telefunken 12AX7 tubes) or one of many transistor preamps.  However, since the PAS is tubes, it has a wide overload capability,

So does this sound like a good idea?  Anybody ever try this?  Chirp in with suggestions!

A MM cartridge can sound superb given proper alignment & right matching with a phono-preamp (upgrade it if necessary.)

IMO, no NEED to go MC. It could be opening up a huge can of worms for ordinary Joe Blows.

c-J

[topround]

Jack I had a Bentley once, it was great but you know what? It got me to work at exactly the same time as my previous car.
So I traded it in and bought an old Chevy malibu, and that car gets me to work at exactly the same time as well.
So I must be a genius right?

[sts9fan]

All MM i know of still have gain. I would not consider them just an EQ.