[rooze]

I moved to the US around 17 years ago and hauled along my beloved LP12/Ittok, along with a couple hundred hand-picked albums.

After a year or so I needed to sell my TT to raise some cash, and off it went to some fellow in Japan.

15 years later and I'm now considering reinvesting back into the format.

Why on earth would I do that?

Well, as my CD based system has become more resolving, my dislike for the format has grown. Each improvement in sound quality basically resigns another batch of mediocre CD's to the 'back shelf', where they remain for posterity reasons only.

I've considered improving my digital front-end, a combination of Cambridge Audio 851C, Pioneer Elite 47ai Universal, and Macbook Pro HD....but I've owned much more expensive players in the past (Audio Aero Capitole MK II as an example) and I've always found the differences in CD players beyond a certain price point to be marginal at best.

I really want a good increase in performance from my system and I see no viable alternative other than stepping back into vinyl, though with some reluctance. (we all know it takes a big commitment to setup, optimize, maintain, and thus extract the full performance-potential from the format).

So my question is this: "as a combined investment (TT, arm, LOMCC) what price range do I need to be in to give me a worthwhile improvement over CD, and can you recommend any 'packages' that might be at the head of a short-list?".

I asked this question on a different forum and didn't feel the responses really considered my position. I'm not a 'newbie' so I don't need to start slow with a mid-level Rega and see if I like it, nor do I have a sizable budget with which to crack the nut. I'm flexible in the sense that I could hold off for a while, sell a few things and increase my budget if necessary, but the level I would feel comfortable at is around the $1500 to $1800 price point. Is that enough?

Lastly, I'm torn between buying new and buying used. I've just had a horrible experience with a moron on eBay who shipped me a 60" replacement ribbon for my Carver speakers, wrapped in a piece of carpet underlay, some loft insulation, all held together with sellotape. I'm waiting for eBay to determine if I have any recourse in recovering my outlay, as the guy won't entertain a return/refund, and it seems he didn't bother to insure the package.

So it would be nice to walk into a dealer and walk out with a new TT, but then I've just reduced the performance per dollar spent potential, assuming the same package could be located at around 40% off MRP on Audiogon, or even here.

My local dealer carries the VPI Traveler, Clearaudio Concept, Michell Tecnodec, Marantz TT15S1 and Rega RP6 decks, so those would be available at full retail around my price point, but would they give me the performance hike I'm looking for?

The rest of my system is a Supratek Chenin with phono (0.1 - 2.5mv), Ampzilla 2000 mono-blocks, Carver Amazing Platinum hybrid, and various cables, tweeks etc.

Musical tastes are all over the place. Classic / Prog rock from the 70's and 80's, Ali Farke Toure, John Martyn, Nick Drake, Ry Cooder, some jazz, limited classical, rap and hip hop need not apply.

Tonally it would be nice to have a warmer more full-bodied sound to contrast with the nasally abrasive cacophony that flows from the average CD.

Thanks in advance for any insights and suggestions. I don't even mind if you recommend sticking the cash into a better CD player, assuming you have a player in mind.

Cheers!

[medium jim]

This thread is doomed because of the hostile wording of the title. 

Jim

[rooze]

Hostile? 

EDIT: I just changed the title from 'trounce' to 'improve on', I assume that's what you were referring to. Though I do respectfully suggest your comment was nonsense, given the context of my post. If anything doomed this to failure it was your comment.

Thanks.

[SteveFord]

I use an older Well Tempered, Ortofon 2M Black and a Jolida JD9 w/ JJ Tesla tubes.
That beats up on CDs pretty well and shouldn't exceed your price point by too much if you are patient in your shopping.
Maybe you can find a good shipper or luck out with a local seller.
The cartridge is MM but it certainly performs well at my house.
Good luck!

[rooze]

I use an older Well Tempered, Ortofon 2M Black and a Jolida JD9 w/ JJ Tesla tubes.
That beats up on CDs pretty well and shouldn't exceed your price point by too much if you are patient in your shopping.
Maybe you can find a good shipper or luck out with a local seller.
The cartridge is MM but it certainly performs well at my house.
Good luck!

Thanks SteveFord, that's the kind of help I'm looking for. I've been intrigued by some of the older turntables and how they stand up to modern examples. My LP12 was from 85, it performed well but I'd expect something modern in the $1500 range to beat it, but that's just speculation on my part.

Cheers

Rooze

[medium jim]

Hostile? 

EDIT: I just changed the title from 'trounce' to 'improve on', I assume that's what you were referring to. Though I do respectfully suggest your comment was nonsense, given the context of my post. If anything doomed this to failure it was your comment.

Thanks.

I agree that it is nonsense, but then there are those who think digital is superior and visa versa. 

Jim

[rooze]

I agree that it is nonsense, but then there are those who think digital is superior and visa versa. 

Jim

This isn't a digital v analog thread, I'm just looking for some help from people who have both digital and vinyl in their rigs and who might be able to suggest the level of expenditure needed for vinyl to improve over digital, perhaps with a specific recommendation or two.

Thanks

[Ericus Rex]

The Traveler and the Concept are the best of your local tables I'd consider.  You could probably find an older Oracle Delphi in your price range, but those tables are a real PITA to set up (I say from experience).  I'm also a fan of Micro Seiki tables but those guys are getting pretty old without any current support.  So, Micro Seiki is risky, but the DQX-1000 really is a great table.  You could also probably find a used Michell Gyrodec in your price range.  Those sound good and aren't as difficult to setup as the Oracles.

[medium jim]

This isn't a digital v analog thread, I'm just looking for some help from people who have both digital and vinyl in their rigs and who might be able to suggest the level of expenditure needed for vinyl to improve over digital, perhaps with a specific recommendation or two.

Thanks

There are those who feel that digital is superior and you imply that Analog is, this tends to set in motion a debate.

Jim

[rooze]

There are those who feel that digital is superior and you imply that Analog is, this tends to set in motion a debate.

Jim

Ohh jeese, please, Jim, could you take it elsewhere.

[jimdgoulding]

In my own head, I've substituted the word improve for romance.  Pardon me for saying, but I think you've misunderestood Medium Jim.  Those are some nice and more affordable tables your local dealer carries.  You know you can spend a truckload of money on some tables.  Can your existing pre-amp accommodate a LOMC?   

[rooze]

I like 'romance', it's a fair substitution, particularly given how close we are to February 14th 

[medium jim]

In my own head, I've substituted the word improved for romance.

+1

Jim

[neobop]

Rooze,
Do you still have your albums?  Within your budget, I think that's the key question.  The rest is hard for us to answer.  I'm sure you can see the price of an LP12/Ittock now.  Maybe a dealer who sells used would be a good alternative.  I've seen some with ads on Audiogon, and there are others.  Shipping is less likely to be a problem and they usually stand behind the sale.
neo 

There are those who feel that digital is superior and you imply that Analog is, this tends to set in motion a debate.
Jim

Jim,
There would be no debate or controversy with the original title, except for your inane comments.   They do nothing to further the thread, only divert it.  Why do we have to waste time reading them, and why are you compelled to police this circle? 
IMO Jim Goulding and you are both wrong.  Analogue reproduction can be romantic, but not necessarily.  I won't debate the issue.  Please go away.

 

[jimdgoulding]

Rooze,
Do you still have your albums?  Within your budget, I think that's the key question.  The rest is hard for us to answer.  I'm sure you can see the price of an LP12/Ittock now.  Maybe a dealer who sells used would be a good alternative.  I've seen some with ads on Audiogon, and there are others.  Shipping is less likely to be a problem and they usually stand behind the sale.
neo 

Jim,
There would be no debate or controversy with the original title, except for your inane comments.   They do nothing to further the thread, only divert it.  Why do we have to waste time reading them, and why are you compelled to police this circle? 
IMO Jim Goulding and you are both wrong.  Analogue reproduction can be romantic, but not necessarily.  I won't debate the issue.  Please go away.

 

Listen, Bop, who are you to tell somebody to go away.  And saying please just makes you a bigger dolt.  I speak only for myself.  You won't debate the issue?  Awww.  What issue, btw?  Miss our dose today, have we?   

[rooze]

Rooze,
Do you still have your albums?  Within your budget, I think that's the key question.  The rest is hard for us to answer.  I'm sure you can see the price of an LP12/Ittock now.  Maybe a dealer who sells used would be a good alternative.  I've seen some with ads on Audiogon, and there are others.  Shipping is less likely to be a problem and they usually stand behind the sale.
neo 

Neo,

Yes, but I'm also somewhat excited about adding to the (rather small) collection that I have from years ago.

I like the tactile nature of it all, getting down and dirty at yard sales, scouring Craigslist for bargains, and of course, picking up a few gems at places like Music Direct.
So I'm not seeing my limited collection of vinyl as a real deterrent to getting back involved. After all, I'm buying CD's (new and used) frequently, so I might just as well put that money into something that will hopefully bring more enjoyment.

I've had a few PM's and some useful feedback. I'm thinking it's doable within my budget, but that perhaps the used market is a better option than buying new. (Unless I can coax a demo unit out of Jim at HiFi Heaven in Green Bay  )

Thanks for the positive input so far.

Rooze

[neobop]

Jim,
Both you and Medium Jim are out of line and off-topic.  This thread isn't about digital vs analogue, it's about the possibility of getting back into vinyl.  I didn't tell anyone to go away.  I requested it, as did the OP.   Maybe you don't care about the OP and his question, but that's what this is supposed to be about.
neo

Listen, Bop, who are you to tell somebody to go away.  And saying please just makes you a bigger dolt.  I speak only for myself.  You won't debate the issue?  Awww.  What issue, btw?  Miss our dose, have we?   

[jimdgoulding]

Plain to see in my original post that I care about the OP's topic.  I am clear from the start that this topic isn't about analog vs. digital.  Apologies to Rooze, good sir, and what you, Neo, took from my reply is in your own mind.  The word 'romance' in my first reply was just meant to divert readers away from what I thought was a misunderstanding.  To help them get back on topic.  Get it?

[Delta Wave]

If you have the cash, just get a VPI Classic variant and be done with it.

[Photon46]

This isn't a digital v analog thread, I'm just looking for some help from people who have both digital and vinyl in their rigs and who might be able to suggest the level of expenditure needed for vinyl to improve over digital, perhaps with a specific recommendation or two.   

Rooze, it's hard to respond to this sort of query in a public forum without inadvertently inflaming some individuals with strongly held beliefs regarding analog vs digital sound. In my experience, it's also difficult to offer meaningful advice without familiarity regarding the TOTAL system in question. After lucking into a chance to purchase incredibly revealing Tidal Piano Cera speakers for a price that worked for me, I realized how much just one thing in the whole reproduction chain can influence your perception of digital vs. analog. I too felt that there was little to be gained in the pursuit of digital improvements after a certain price point, but the insertion of more revealing speakers has opened my ears and mind to the reality that there's more digital goodness and improvement possible than I'd previously thought. There is a definite organic "rightness" obvious in analog that offsets less than desirable distortions evident in less than state of the art systems. I recently purchased a Luxman D-05 SACD/Cd player that has really gotten me listening to digital more frequently. My analog system is pretty decent (Acoustic Signature Final Tool, AudioMods tonearm, Ortofon Kontrapunkt H, RCM Sensor Prelude phonostage) and the Luxman holds my attention quite well in comparison. I'm not saying that the Luxman exceeds the specific virtues than makes analog uniquely compelling, but it has its own set of virtues that makes it a great partner for listening. Some of us seem to fixate on a narrow range of specific aspects of audio reproduction and elevate them to the top of our "must have" list. Others can appreciate that, for instance, digital has a lower noise floor that lets very low level details shine through exceptionally well. In the case of the Luxman, the differences of dynamic gradation between ppp to ffff is more evident and pronounced than it is in analog (or any other semi-affordable cd player I've heard.)

Now that my system has reached a certain level of revealing clarity, I can appreciate that there are PLENTY of less than stellar  analog recordings, just as there are wide variations in digital. Unfortunately, neither great analog nor digital playback hardware overcomes this fact. It would be great if we could all figure out early in our journey towards getting the best system we can afford what our own audio prejudices and "must haves" are. It would sure make the journey more direct and ultimately affordable.

You are quite right to be wary of some used analog gear in my experience. I've had both great and poor experiences purchasing used analog stuff. I wouldn't have any qualms about purchasing used analog gear from good and reputable brick & mortar stores though. I think cartridges are items subject to great misrepresentation by some less than honest individuals (spoken from experience here  )
I have also heard many tales of woe regarding purchases of turntables from individuals who had NO idea how to pack them.

There's a lot of wisdom in the last comment to just buy a VPI classic variant and be done with it. They are a great value.