[TheChairGuy]

Based on all the fun we had this past weekend, and the superiority we agreed was the Wadia/Krell over APL's overachieving one-box Marantz / Phillips SACD-1000, a new challenge has been issued forth.

The all conquering Wadia/Krell versus my own Empirical Audio Turbo-modded MSB Gold Link III / Sony DVP-S7700 (with Jensens, no Super Clock 2) and (non-modded) Power Base.

The $4200.00 front end deemed 'perfect' by the esteemed Steve Nugent versus our reigning champion at $13K +.

My front end will be accompanied by a Revelation Audio Digital RJ-45/XLR cable and power umbilical cord from DAC to Base.

All equipment therafter will be of Brian's choosing in one of the better listening areas that I am aware of - his place on VMPS speakers, of course.

We are thinking of Saturday, July 24 or 31 at 9AM.  How does that sound to some of you Bay Area guys  

Sa-dono, get your butt in here - I want to meet ya'. We can handle about 8-10 people max.  Brian and I are two...6-8 spots left to hear what might be a very illuminating morning of music and good cheer.

[zybar]

Brian,

Slightly off topic...

How would you compare the Son of Ampzilla to the Ampzilla 2000 mono's?

Any limitations running SOA full range?

Is SOA your reference amp now?

I am trying to gather a smuch feedback as possible since there is no audition period for the Ampzilla products.

Thanks,

George

[Brian Cheney]

I currently prefer the SOA to the monoblocks, but a simple tweak could reverse that (i.e. removing/bypassing the input selector toggle switch on the monoblocks).

[jgubman]

Does the SOA only come w/ phono and XLR inputs or does James offer a version w/ RCA inputs?

[John Casler]

Hi All,

I hope this doesn't make me unpopular, but I would make a couple suggestions for the next (or any) comparison listening.

1) Make no judgements except when in the sweet spot
2) Make no judgements unless exact level matching is attempted
3) Make all judgements based on familiar musical passages
4) Take notes about specific sonic details of the components compared

Now I am not being critical here, but in looking at the picture below, I don't see a single person in the sweet spot of the RM40s.  If this shot was used for posing everyone then I stand corrected, but if it was representative of the true listening positions, then I'm afraid none of the parties (except Brian who knows his speakers from that very position, since it is the same one he assumes during all auditions) really heard the true detail of differences.

The "Office Chair" which is empty, but hopeully was manned by whomever shot this photo, is the closest to the right height.

I think the fellow in the beard, blue shirt and folding chair, is probably the closest, but may be too low and unless his feet are on the carpet he is too far out of the convergence.

Also note, the RM40s cross (converge) a couple feet inside the DE of the room, so the first chair sweat spot would have been in that area.

Call me a perfectionist, but details make a difference, and when making minute sonic judgments of subtle details, it cannot be truly assessed except under these circumstances.

See what I am talking about in the photos below:





Now as far as level mtaching, it is relatively simple:

Step one)  use one of the source components (CDP) being compared and with a Sound Pressure Meter play one of the cuts to be used at the volume desired and set the gain control.

Step two) don't touch the volume control of that component and place a "white noise" cut into it and play white noise without touching the preset volume.  Make note of the Db reading of that source component.

Step three) simply disconnect the component and connect the other component and play the same white noise and set the Db level to match.

Now both components are perfectly matched and the volume knobs on either player should not be touched or else you have changed the matching.

As far as format, I would suggest 3-4 sweet seats in a row exactly between the speakers.  

Each person judging should have a single definitive cut that they are familiar with enough to judge.

While all of the chairs can be used, only the front sweet seat is a "judgement chair".  So it is a game of musical (excuse the pun ) chairs

Reference cuts are played A/B as the owner of the cut takes the primary position and takes notes if nessessary.  Others fill in the chair behind and enjoy, but probably cannot judge as accurately.

In some sessions I have been to, we even switched off during our reference cut after we determined what sonic features were present, allowing a few others to hear our cuts too.  Generally these switches were about 30-40 seconds which allowed 3-4 people to hear the same cut.

When doing this, you must switch in the same order and approximatly the same time (in the cut) to be able to really compare.

I would suggest that claiming serious evaluation without something like this is not possible, especially in unfamiliar surroundings with unfamiliar recordings.

Discussions of what you are hearing and what you are listening for is fun and valuable and helps everyone learn how to listen and enjoy the session even more.  These discussions take place during the cut and component changes and help us develop critical listening skills.

Anyhow, I hope that all made sense and didn't tweak any silver/golden ears.

Purely suggestions, but I think you'll feel like you really "did" get a small idea of the differences between the compared components.

Have fun

[John Casler]

Does the SOA only come w/ phono and XLR inputs or does James offer a version w/ RCA inputs?

SOA comes with XLR inputs and a pair of phono (rca) adaptors.

So if you use "unbalanced" connectors, you just plug in the adaptors.

[zybar]

John,

If I took the plunge, could James make the 2ooo's without the input selctor (just xlr)?

George

[jgubman]

John,
the guy w/ the beard was me, and yes, I took that spot bcs it looked the sweetest to me w/o rearranging furniture. You can see it the photo I'm leaning a little to the right, that's where I found the spot to be the best. I'm pretty familiar w/ the RM-40s, and I found where I was a pretty good listening spot.

It may indeed have been a little sweeter a few feet in front of me, and granted level matching was done by ear, but trust me, even to my tin ears the differences btwn the sources wasn't very subtle.

[TheChairGuy]

How does July 31/9 AM work for everyone?

I have been summoned to Florida for a couple days earlier in the previous week, and my brother-in-law comes in July 22, 23 from New York.  Between airport pickups/dropoffs, time zone changes, bad hotel sleeps and air travel , in general, TheChairGuy would be waaaay too bedraggled for a July 24 Rumble.  

Is July 31 / 9AM equally as good for all / most (especially you, Brian?)

I will be fresh as the proverbial daisy (what the hell does this term mean anyhow; do we have any botanists out there that can explain that one?) on July 31, tho  

[TheChairGuy]

How does July 31/9 AM work for everyone?

I have been summoned to Florida for a couple days earlier in the previous week, and my brother-in-law comes in July 22, 23 from New York.  Between airport pickups/dropoffs, time zone changes, bad hotel sleeps and air travel , in general, TheChairGuy would be waaaay too bedraggled for a July 24 Rumble.  

Is July 31 / 9AM equally as good for all / most (especially you, Brian?)

I will be fresh as the proverbial daisy (what the hell does this term mean anyhow; do we have any botanists out there that can explain that one?) on July 31, tho  

[John Casler]

John,

If I took the plunge, could James make the 2ooo's without the input selctor (just xlr)?

George

Hi George,

James is in the Orient at present, but I will confirm if he can do this when he returns.

[Brian Cheney]

7/31 is fine for me.

These are unscientific tests.  John Casler has outlined the requirements for a more rigorous test, but in practice it's hard to do everything just right.  I'm open to suggestions on how to set up the comparison (beyond what John has outlined).  I'd also like to know how to cut down on sour grapes from the loser (if there is one).

[Brian Cheney]

7/31 is fine for me.

These are unscientific tests.  John Casler has outlined the requirements for a more rigorous test, but in practice it's hard to do everything just right.  I'm open to suggestions on how to set up the comparison (beyond what John has outlined).  I'd also like to know how to cut down on sour grapes from the loser (if there is one).

[TheChairGuy]

Brian,

I'm not a sour grapes kinda' guy....and not very competitive by nature.  Further, I make my income outside of my audio hobby, so nothing that will come from our listening session will impact my pocketbook.

The combination of these factors will serve to mitigate any sour grapes afterwards.

As for Steve Nugent / Empirical Audio, he's a high road kinda' guy, based on my experience.  He also told me to use your gear (he knows mine to be inferior).  Any input he might have afterwards will only be informative, not back-biting, I think.

Implementing John Casler's ideas would be quite difficult, and I accept the listening room and practices that we had this past weekend in evaluating APL's one-box.  It's all about learning and growing for me....and, honestly, learning a bit more about the depth of knowledge that the modder that I have chosen has.

Anyhow, I'm psyched for it!  By that time, I should have a new (digital) Exodus 2.2se in hand (and burned in for a few hundred hours), but that looks to be a nightmare to implement an amp in your listening room. I have nice Tek-Line (silver wire with silver bullets) 1.5 mtr RCA-RCA's IC"s if you can, tho.

FYI - I intend to 'cheat' a little and use my Sony/MSB combo with a ZSleeve tube on the digital cable (where it does the most good, overall, obliterating EMI and RFI).  It still keeps the system price at under $4500.00 - considerably cheaper than the Krell/Wadia combo, still.

 

[John Casler]

John,
the guy w/ the beard was me, and yes, I took that spot bcs it looked the sweetest to me w/o rearranging furniture. You can see it the photo I'm leaning a little to the right, that's where I found the spot to be the best. I'm pretty familiar w/ the RM-40s, and I found where I was a pretty good listening spot.

It may indeed have been a little sweeter a few feet in front of me, and granted level matching was done by ear, but trust me, even to my tin ears the differences btwn the sources wasn't very subtle.

Hi Jon,

I thought that was you but didn't know for sure since it looked like you were sitting in a "ChairGuy" chair.

I know B's room and did sit in the "office chair" wheeling it around all over the room to check out the sweetest of spots.

I suspect you were the one who could hear the most sonic differences.

To all:

Sorry if my suggestions seemed a bit scientific, but I have been to and participated in hundreds of these "get togethers", and I can only say that if the sound levels are off even 1-2 db you can find it difficult to get a good evaluation, between two components if they are close in perfromance.  If they are not "even" close, you can sometimes tell from another room

As far as the "in line" sweet seat" suggestion, that is something I "always" do when more than one client comes to audition VMPS.

If you are using two different CDPs and both have volume controls, then level matching this is a snap.  If they don't have volume controls, then it is more difficult.  

Don't make me have to come up there  

(just kidding - , have a good time however you do it)

[tkp]

Another thing we will need to consider is that VMPS speakers are highly adjustable to complement the electronics so in this case the KW combo would have the advantage because the entire system has been adjust to perfection over time.  If a new CD play back system is closed to the KW combo then how do we know it will not beat the KW with the retuning of the VMPS speakers (over long period of time) to complement it?

[Sa-dono]

We are thinking of Saturday, July 24 or 31 at 9AM. How does that sound to some of you Bay Area guys  

Sa-dono, get your butt in here - I want to meet ya'.

I believe the 31st works..but no guarantees. Any chance for a later time? Some of us like to stay up and sleep in late on the weekends. Plus, if we set things up at the right time, maybe Jim can have something to eat, if he goes.

[Sa-dono]

Hi All,

I hope this doesn't make me unpopular, but I would make a couple suggestions for the next (or any) comparison listening.

1) Make no judgements except when in the sweet spot
2) Make no judgements unless exact level matching is attempted
3) Make all judgements based on familiar musical passages
4) Take notes about specific sonic details of the components compared

.......

I couldn't agree more.

[Sa-dono]

7/31 is fine for me.

These are unscientific tests.  John Casler has outlined the requirements for a more rigorous test, but in practice it's hard to do everything just right.  I'm open to suggestions on how to set up the comparison (beyond what John has outlined).  I'd also like to know how to cut down on sour grapes from the loser (if there is one).

I can't agree that this is that rigorous. John and I have been at plenty of get togethers where we have followed this format with ease, and no problems.

One thing to keep in mind is finding the right preamp to match up with TCG's gear (and possibly with both sets of gear, for some of the comparisons).

[Sa-dono]

Don't make me have to come up there

Come on up! Or are you too much of a wussy?

The "sweat" spot won't be the same without you there.