[rbbert]

but it is about price.  if it were possible to spend $100 total and have a great sounding vinyl system everyone would have one.  vinyl costs more than digital, so if you can't make the investment, I wouldn't get into it.  that's ridiculous about it being hard to setup.  one of the best sounding tables out there can be setup perfect in 15 min with no special tools.  like anything, if you scrap together a bunch of old junk you are going to spend a lot of time trying to get it all work properly, which probably will never happen.

I have to wonder then why it's such a common excuse for poor or mediocre sounding LP setups at audio shows (i.e., it's not setup right)?

[*Scotty*]

A simple belt drive TT isn't that hard to setup and use. If the phone cartridge in not mis-manufactured, then it can be mounted on the tonearm and the overhang set with with relative ease. That leaves stylus rake angle to set and many better turntables have the ability to make this adjustment by loosening a set screw on the tonearm pillar. My Denon table had this capability over 30 years ago.
If you can purchase a turntable in this day and age that does not have this feature then you have a failure in engineering where the best in theory, has become the enemy of the good.
Scotty

[*Scotty*]

Its an easy out. In my opinion if they can't set up a turntable properly then they probably should stick with digital sources.
Scotty

[roscoeiii]

I have to wonder then why it's such a common excuse for poor or mediocre sounding LP setups at audio shows (i.e., it's not setup right)?

Ease of set-up is very turntable, tonearm, cart dependent. I believe vortrex is referring to the Amadeus table, which is remarkable for its ease of set-up (though that estimate of 15 min is a bit optimistic, IME). Other tables, arms, carts are much more finicky.

[wushuliu]

Price isn't what I'm talking about. Although in this day and age, price isn't as solid a determiner of performance as it once was. A lot of things are also overpriced..

It's the extreme fiddlyness. Make sure this and make sure that. Set this and set that and make sure you use this with this. People hear all the time "oh vinyl is the way to go", but if you can't make it sound incredible out of the box, better than an Ipod, it will never re-take off. It will just be another quick passing fad.

For the record- ha, for myself, I'm still interested in getting back into it. I want to try the U-turn Orbit.

Unfortunately you are beyond wrong. It's no less fiddly than digital. You're conflating average consumer needs vs. audiophile. You do realize that you can purchase new set-it-and forget-it turntables, right?

And this from a person with Maggies. Like you can just put any old amp on those!

[SteveFord]

In days of olde when knights were bold and digital was unknown there were lots of cruddy sounding turntable/cartridge combos and then there were the really good ones which were priced sky high.
I always had the cruddy ones but was too inexperienced to know it.  Looking back I have to laugh at the nonsense I used to spout off all the time. 
At any rate, the really good ones from yesteryear are still really good ones today. 
The good news is that they have depreciated a bit while cartridges, phono stages and RCMs have improved.
A record cleaning machine was sort of a mythical creation back when vinyl was king.  I certainly didn't know of anybody who had one.   I did have a DiscWasher brush with the official DiscWasher fluid - I still have and use the brush for dust removal.
What you can put together today is something I couldn't have even dreamed of as a kid. 
WireNut was happy enough using the turntable on a less than wonderful system but when he plugged it into the main system it showed up all of the warts. 
He is on the dreaded upgrade path. 
It's not a convenient medium but the end results can be spectacular.

[wushuliu]

I have to wonder then why it's such a common excuse for poor or mediocre sounding LP setups at audio shows (i.e., it's not setup right)?

What's the excuse for the poor and mediocre sounding digital?... At least vinyl has one...

[Rclark]

Wushu, I wasn't speaking for myself. I look forward to messing with it.

As far as poor sounding digital, it's a lot of old tech still taking a bad rap. Look at Von Schweikert, he will be demoing his new speakers (the big ones) with full digital front end after decades of records. So definitely at a turning point.

[medium jim]

Unfortunately you are beyond wrong. It's no less fiddly than digital. You're conflating average consumer needs vs. audiophile. You do realize that you can purchase new set-it-and forget-it turntables, right?

And this from a person with Maggies. Like you can just put any old amp on those!

Not to mention how much fiddling required to get them Maggies in the right place....

Jim

[orientalexpress]

Are you speaking from personal experience?

yes,i own both when i"m first i got into

[topround]

unfortunately vinyl requires a proper setup to sound good.
I have had very cheap TT setups that trounced digital, but they were set up right...really right.
This can dissolve into a sort of tubes versus SS argument.

Some people can hear what tubes do and others cannot, when it comes to analogue, either you get it or you don't.
If digital makes you happy then go for it and be happy.
For others it takes analogue to take them to that special place. And it is a very special place. If your cd player sounds better than your vinyl rig then something definitely is wrong with your vinyl rig. There is no question here, trust me,even the stack can't keep up.
Computer based audio has taken digital to a much higher place with its higher resolution formats, redbook is dead if you ask me.
I think you have to get lucky sometimes. If you get a TT and it is setup right and you get to experience what it is all about, it becomes like an epiphany, and you really can't turn back. Turning back from analogue means going back to digital, which can be quite good, but when you truly see the light how could you settle for less.
Tweaky, expensive.? Yes it could be...doesn't  have to be, but we are audiophiles...look how much money we blow on power cords, tubes ,caps and goddamn fuses, so if vinyl is tweaky and expensive, those of us that are into digital that talk of its convenience. I think all talk of convenience is nullified by us spending so much on the little things. We are all tweaky and expensive, whether you put a needle to record or push the in button on a cd player.

The question you have to ask yourself is....are you worth it.

we are all attracted to beautiful women, maybe some of you men !
given the choice of having sex with a beautiful women or an ugly one, we would all choose the beauty(me, I like blondes), are you going to work at trying to nail that smoking hot babe, or try to get the fat chick that is desperate

the choice is yours, and always was

[Rclark]

Yeah but she isn't the fat ugly chick anymore. Digital is now the smoking redhead over talking to blondie's boyfriend.

[roscoeiii]

RClark and others, let's please not turn this into a digital vs. vinyl thread, except in the context of seeing if we can help bring OP's vinyl set-up to a higher caliber.

[medium jim]

RClark and others, let's please not turn this into a digital vs. vinyl thread, except in the context of seeing if we can help bring OP's vinyl set-up to a higher caliber.

+1

Jim

[*Scotty*]

Digital is basically irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I think if WireNut has the good fortune to acquire a good sounding phono-stage he will be much closer to being happy listening to vinyl.
Scotty

[medium jim]

Digital is basically irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I think if WireNut has the good fortune to acquire a good sounding phono-stage he will be much closer to being happy listening to vinyl.
Scotty

And in that I would recommend the Bottlehead Seduction.  They are rather good and show up now and then already built.

I often wonder how my old Pioneer PL12 with a modern cartridge would sound or would I be better off with a new Music Hall Carbon TT.

Jim

[WireNut]

I first tried to set overhang on my TT based on the info from the manual at 2.047 from the stylus tip to the end of the headshell washer. Then I got the alignment protractor from vinyl engine and it was easy to see that my initial setting was off. I think the vinyl engine protractor is a good tool. I like it.
 As far as cleaning the albums goes I started out by using my Allsop 3 Orbitrac but that just seemed to push dirt around so now I’m cleaning them in the sink with a soft sponge, luke warm water and a couple drops of dish soap then drying with terry cloth and a dish rack.
 Also, I came across some inner and outer sleeves called “Blake Sleeves” from ClearBags web site which I plan on purchasing to protect my albums.
 Boris at Vista Audio has a MK2 version of the phono-1 preamp which allows user's to set cartridge loading and gain for $299.00.
I'm getting one real soon.

[Delta Wave]

I first tried to set overhang on my TT based on the info from the manual at 2.047 from the stylus tip to the end of the headshell washer. Then I got the alignment protractor from vinyl engine and it was easy to see that my initial setting was off. I think the vinyl engine protractor is a good tool. I like it.
 As far as cleaning the albums goes I started out by using my Allsop 3 Orbitrac but that just seemed to push dirt around so now I’m cleaning them in the sink with a soft sponge, luke warm water and a couple drops of dish soap then drying with terry cloth and a dish rack.
 Also, I came across some inner and outer sleeves called “Blake Sleeves” from ClearBags web site which I plan on purchasing to protect my albums.
 Boris at Vista Audio has a MK2 version of the phono-1 preamp which allows user's to set cartridge loading and gain for $299.00.
I'm getting one real soon.

If you're going to wash them in the sink I would opt for a Disc Doctor kit, or better yet a cheapie Spin Clean as someone mentioned previously... cheap, easy and they work.  The Disc Doctor brushes and fluids are quite nice and work well but a little pricy. The brushes are also sold under different OEM brands like Music Direct. I used them along with an old cheap plastic turntable to sit the records on while I scrubbed them when I first returned to vinyl.

Although I've never heard the Vista pre, I'm sure it will be a giant leap past what you're currently using. And yes, I do have experience with the Art... Good luck and persevere! Pretty soon a better deck will fall in your lap.

[topround]

Wire Nut
PM me your address I will send you my Vista to try out , see if it helps you.
Great little beginner phono pre, and Boris is a great guy.

Mike

[S Clark]

Wire Nut
PM me your address I will send you my Vista to try out , see if it helps you.
Great little beginner phono pre, and Boris is a great guy.

Mike

Mike,
That's a very generous offer.  And welcome back to AC.