[neobop]

Thank you all for opening up my brain and pouring your knowledge in and making me realize how important VTA is on my turntable. Since I can’t adjust VTA on my tone arm the only way I could accomplish it was to rise the album or shim the cartridge. I ended up raising the album 3/16” by adding a second rubber platter and a 12” round piece of kitchen foam shelf liner.
 The end result is substantial. It is obvious to me that the stylus was leaning backwards.
Detail, treble and sound stage increased big time, better bass definition, all around probably a 30% increase in sound quality.
I’m on my way now. Next step is a better cartridge to suit my taste.
I knew you all could help me. Thank you so much.

Steve

Okay dokey, no more tears?   Just kidding, there's a lot of stuff to figure out and it's confusing and frustrating at times. If you're buying a new cart, see if you can find headshell spacers.  It's a better solution than 3 mats IMO.  I assume you have to stick with the table at least for now, but it's really pretty good for an inexpensive deck. Did you stuff it with clay?  You'll need around 5 lbs of plasticlay or non-hardening modeling clay.  You have to remove the platter, tie down the arm, turn it upside down and take off the bottom panel. Just stuff it right in but be careful of the electronics and any moving parts.  You don't want to get it too close to the motor, it needs some ventilation. Also, check the manual and see if the motor needs a lube. Some direct drives are permalube, but I don't think yours is.

I suggest downloading all three universal protractors, and especially the Chipwitz (or something like that). You have to make sure the scale on the bottom is correct. This could mean defeating the auto sizing on your printer. You might have to put it on landscape.  Here's why you need the protractor with the straight line grid.  Your table is factory set-up for an alignment close to Stevenson. That puts the inner null at the standard lead-out groove and minimizes inner groove distortion. Unfortunately, error is high at the beginning. Baerwald alignment is the most popular and has the most even sound across the entire record. But your arm probably won't have enough length in the headshell slots to achieve Baerwald.  What I used to do is put the cart all the way to the end of the headshell and then angle back the side closest to the spindle. The straight line protractor will allow a "correct" alignment close to ideal, and the right amount to angle the cart.  Trust me, I did this numerous times for customers with similar or same tables and they couldn't thank me enough.

I think you should forget about the AT-440MLa.  It tends to brightness, has a long break-in and might require loading down your preamp.  There's a new AT, the 100E ($90 LpGear). This has the same generator as the 150MLX. It even has the high end wire inside. It comes with a bonded elliptical stylus which is decent. It will take a 440ML as a replacement stylus, or a 150MLX for that matter. With that stylus you'd have a 150MLX, only with a lighter plastic body.
Long play and prosper,
neo



 

[TheChairGuy]

My vote is on the Denon DL-110 for the price range you're in 

Grado's are faves of mine...but for relative newbies I can't recommend them as they aren't something to by used without tinkering.

Denon's are simply great values at each of their various price points based upon the few I've heard (and now, use)

[WireNut]

  I have listened to two different turntables, 4 different cart's by 4 different manufactures, and the sound quality of vinyl compared to my digital rig in /dynamic's/bass punch/and overall sound quality just isn't even close to my digital rig.  I'm hoping for the best for my vinyl, but it just isn't happening. It's a frigg'in bummer. I have lot's of albums but vinyl is sounding so dull and lifeless to me compared to my digital rig so far.

     

 

[*Scotty*]

Same phono-stage right? What vinyl albums,inquiring minds want to know.
Scotty

[WireNut]

 Same phono stage,different TT's and cart's. Album's are mint Billy Cobham, Syro Grya, Deep Purple,Chicago, ELO, ELP, Boston,ect.

[wushuliu]

It took me a while before I felt like I got my PC audio setup to my liking. Vinyl didn't take me any less.

[WireNut]

 Dynamic's/ bass "VOLUME"/ and punch are non existent in my vinyl rig. But mid's and Treble sound fine.
 Everything was alined with the vinly engine protractor. Everything on the TT is alined as best as I can possible get it.
 Dynamic's and bass pounce just aren't happening at all.

[WireNut]

 I have listened to my vinly rig for 3 days. It wasn't happening for me so I just hooked my digital rig back up and BAMM There it is.
Dymanic's,bass punch,slam,everything is back. It's a frigg'in bummer for me and my vinly collection.
Vinyl is sounding dull and lifeless to me. I hate to give up on it.
It's just not what I'd hoped it would be.

[*Scotty*]

Be advised that the Boston albums will be forward and short on bass. Of the three Spyro.Gyra albums I have, only Morning Dance has a good tonal balance, Catching the Sun is a little forward and short on bass extension, the self titled first album, Spyro Gyra is also mixed a little hot and is short in the bass department. I don't have very many Billy Cobham albums. A Funky Thide of Sings is pretty good, bass and treble are fairly well balanced, the horns are a just little bit forward in the mix on side one for my taste. Side two has a much better balance and sounds very even tonally, the cut, a Funky Kind Thing is really well recorded and is a good drum demo cut, go figure. The Billy Cobham-George Duke Band, Live On Tour In Europe is pretty good, it is a little short on both ends of the spectrum but very acceptable for a live recording done in 1976, Space Lady is funny as hell. There is isn't much to work with when it comes to Deep Purple and only the first Chicago album is really good, I am guessing that there was way more overdubbing done on all of the Chicago albums after CTA and it really hurt the sound. I like ELO but I don't have any of their albums on vinyl so I can't comment. 70's rock seems to be a real crapshoot as far as sound quality is concerned. I don't expect much from most rock recording done in the 60s and 70s there might be a few gems but there are likely to be more losers than anything else. Some of this stuff just sounds better as road music in the car.
Scotty

[WireNut]

Some of this stuff just sounds better as road music in the car.

Yes, I have noticed some of my old album's sound good and some sound like crap.
Most sound like crap so far. Maybe I need to go cruis'in to the old'es. 

 Most of my albums are so low on bass volume that's what's really killing me towards vinyl. 

[WireNut]

  Road Trip

[*Scotty*]

I can recommend Dead Can Dance, SPIRIT CHASER on vinyl. It has everything that might be missing from your vinyl experience so far. The bass is just as good as the best CD, excellent imaging and detail with a very natural tonal balance.  In fact the entire album is demonstration quality for vinyl playback. The bass should make it clear why you have extension into last octave, I can get lost in this recording. End of RAVE.
Scotty

[neobop]

  I have listened to two different turntables, 4 different cart's by 4 different manufactures, and the sound quality of vinyl compared to my digital rig in /dynamic's/bass punch/and overall sound quality just isn't even close to my digital rig.  I'm hoping for the best for my vinyl, but it just isn't happening. It's a frigg'in bummer. I have lot's of albums but vinyl is sounding so dull and lifeless to me compared to my digital rig so far.

Jeez, and here I thought you were finished crying.  What do you expect, miracles? Maybe you ought to reread page 1 of your thread, and what makes you think your old records are mint?  Were they ever cleaned properly, in an RCM or SpinClean?  Did anyone tell you that you could just resurrect your 25 yr old budget record player and it would compete with a decent digital rig?  What's the other table and 3 carts?

What have you done to optimize the sound? Cleaned records properly?  Found a suitable support for the table?  Filled insides with clay? Experimented with VTA and a better solution than multiple mats that prob isn't exactly "right", and could turn the bass into mud?  I have no idea about your expectations, but they seem overly optimistic, to say the least. It's not like you went out and bought a VPI Classic, a $1K cart, another $1K phono stage, and a 16.5 RCM, is it?   

I don't have many Billy Cobham records, but Crossroads sounds pretty good on vinyl. The reality is, you don't have to spend that kind of money to get decent sound you will enjoy, but it involves lots of hands-on effort and there's a big learning curve.  You already have decent digital, and your system is optimised for that. Please consider what you have and if you're willing to make the investment in time, money, and effort, to do vinyl right.
neo     

[orientalexpress]

Oh boy here is the problem DJpre2 phono preamp,That got to be the worst pre amp money can buy,junk that and spend $300 on Vista phono stage and done with it.




lapsan

[TheChairGuy]

Wirenut...heed neo's advice here.

If you're unwilling to put in the time and effort to pull your current dumpy vinyl playback system up a notch or two (with all of our abundant help), then please go back to digital-only listening and let us turn our attentions to matters worth spending time on.

Got news for ya' - most of us would LOVE it if we could get digital to sound as natural and organic as vinyl.  Many of us have spent many $$thousands in pursuit of (failed) high fidelity from digital.  There are no real shortcuts to getting vinyl right - it takes time, tinkering and at least a little $ expenditure.

If u have questions and want to really make an effort to improve your vinyl playback - we're all here to help.  If you want to grouse about how shitty your vinyl sounds next to your digital without putting in the efforts - please make your way to another circle at AC more receptive to your situation.

John / Facilitator / The Vinyl Circle

Jeez, and here I thought you were finished crying.  What do you expect, miracles? Maybe you ought to reread page 1 of your thread, and what makes you think your old records are mint?  Were they ever cleaned properly, in an RCM or SpinClean?  Did anyone tell you that you could just resurrect your 25 yr old budget record player and it would compete with a decent digital rig?  What's the other table and 3 carts?

What have you done to optimize the sound? Cleaned records properly?  Found a suitable support for the table?  Filled insides with clay? Experimented with VTA and a better solution than multiple mats that prob isn't exactly "right", and could turn the bass into mud?  I have no idea about your expectations, but they seem overly optimistic, to say the least. It's not like you went out and bought a VPI Classic, a $1K cart, another $1K phono stage, and a 16.5 RCM, is it?   

I don't have many Billy Cobham records, but Crossroads sounds pretty good on vinyl. The reality is, you don't have to spend that kind of money to get decent sound you will enjoy, but it involves lots of hands-on effort and there's a big learning curve.  You already have decent digital, and your system is optimised for that. Please consider what you have and if you're willing to make the investment in time, money, and effort, to do vinyl right.
neo     

[poseidonsvoice]

... I have no idea about your expectations, but they seem overly optimistic, to say the least. It's not like you went out and bought a VPI Classic, a $1K cart, another $1K phono stage, and a 16.5 RCM, is it?   

... The reality is, you don't have to spend that kind of money to get decent sound you will enjoy, but it involves lots of hands-on effort and there's a big learning curve.  You already have decent digital, and your system is optimised for that. Please consider what you have and if you're willing to make the investment in time, money, and effort, to do vinyl right.
neo     

Bingo! Neo hit the nail on the head.

Best,

Anand.

[roscoeiii]

Not to mention that you are using 3 turntable mats. While that may have fixed VTA issues, it is far from sonically ideal. And I would suspect that the frequency extremes and dynamics in particular would be affected by that.

Dynamics and punch and bass are trickier to get from vinyl for sure. But it can be done.

[Toaster]

If you'll pardon me saying so guys, some of you are being a little unkind! Yes, expectations here are unrealistically high, but WireNut didn't know what to expect...

That said, my limited experience with the SL-D3 some years back is that it really isn't very good. The SL1200 series on the other hand are good decks, although the arms are less than wonderful. In a 'serious' system the SL-D3 won't cut it, I'm afraid. The engineering and design of the basic motor unit really does make a huge difference to the sound from vinyl. My standard baseline for cheap turntables is the Systemdek IIX (used) with a modern Rega arm and the excellent DL110 cartridge already mentioned. This should at least give your digital front end an argument. An alternative is one of the AR decks, probably still with a Rega arm. The recent Rega turntables are good too, but I'm assuming budget is fairly tight. Otherwise, although more DIY is involved, the Lenco L75 idler-drive deck with a decent arm really is as good as the fans say it is. I've heard them on several occasions with a range of arms and cartridges. If you are OK on DIY there are excellent phono stages available as kits from Richard Murdley, the VSPS for MMs and the Phonoclone for MCs. A close friend is presently using the Phonoclone with a Trans-fi turntable and arm. Great sound! Oh, nothing wrong with the AT OC-9 either, but they are a little bright. Have fun!

[WireNut]

If you'll pardon me saying so guys, some of you are being a little unkind! Yes, expectations here are unrealistically high, but WireNut didn't know what to expect...

I didn’t know what to except, it’s been 25 years since I tried vinyl. I've been so excited about it. It’s a lot more complicated then I would have ever imagined. My expectations and excitement to get back into vinyl again where very high.  I’m not about to give up, I’m just getting started. Time to pick up some good vinyl equipment and start over and not get in such a big hurry.

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

Dynamic's/ bass "VOLUME"/ and punch are non existent in my vinyl rig. But mid's and Treble sound fine.
 Everything was alined with the vinly engine protractor. Everything on the TT is alined as best as I can possible get it.
 Dynamic's and bass pounce just aren't happening at all.

Most of my albums are so low on bass volume that's what's really killing me towards vinyl. 

Sorry I have to disagree! I think either something wrong with the matching of the cartridge with yr phono-preamp or downstream of yr audio gear.

FYI, my cheapie no-name MM cartridge playing on a 40-year-old vintage Thorens 125II TT driving the 50-year-young Dynaco PAS-2/ST-75 combo (after my super-rebuilt) virtually shakes up my basement audio den with subsonic bass pedal notes of pipe organs from my LPs. Again these pipe organ music LPs are recyles from thrift stores, & cost me only 75 cents a pop! You can call me cheap again. One does not need to drop big bundles IF one knows the game well enough!

 Yet my LPs not only give me thundering subsonic bass, also deliver dynamic range enough to make my CD, DVD-audio & Blu-rau stereo players shy!

So may I suggest you check out what's wrong with yr LP system before you condemn it.

c-J