[Letitroll98]

Watch this till the end....

Damn, I thought we were going to see Wolfy leaning on a speaker. 

I had seen the first video, but not the second, good find.  Andrew was kinda dry in his presentation of the TAD speakers, yeah, they're great speakers for $30k.  But when he moved over to the BR series he lit up, I really think he likes these guys better than the megadollar speakers.

[Doublej]

Anyone know how good the subwoofer is?

[AndrewJ]

So I have a question.  You build a giant killer with the BS21's, I get to look like a hero to my non-audiophile friends by recommending them, they all love 'em, then overnight you redesign and come out with the BS22's.  Now the unwashed friends don't care, they don't even know there's a new model, but we're curious as to why the change so quickly.  Could you share your design goals in the change and how closely you think you achieved them?  Thanks in advance for the response.

Overnight!! Even I am not that good...
Although if it was overnight at least i could have more time to spend on the forums
So, I didn't really change the design that quickly. It had been on the market for over 18 months before I introduced the redesign. It might have seemed shorter just because it took time originally to build the buzz.
Why the redesign? Well, there are two reasons: As an engineer, I'm never finished and am always looking at what can be made better, but as a business, I have to stop somewhere (or more to the point, someone stops me   ). So I always know what I want to explore next time. Secondly, we were forced into a change due to new regulations on Formaldehyde content in wood products. We met the existing regulations, but we knew new ones were coming along and we would have to meet these. This was going to put up the cost of the raw materials for the cabinet, so rather than just charge more for the same speaker, we decided to add a little more over the cost of the wood and make all those design improvements that I had been thinking about.
Simple things like changing the impedance level to better optimise the impedance to the capabilities of the receivers, improving the efficiency with larger magnets, better cone materials, vented pole pieces for improved bass linearity, increased suspension compliance for better bass tuning, improved waveguide design on the tweeter, and of course a new xover tuning to take account of all of these differences. The results I think are more linear response, and improved bass dynamics and extension.
We also changed the looks both to make clear that this was a new design and also in response to feedback. Not everyone liked the look of the metal grilles (apparently I am in the minority !) and had requested a more traditional look with a cloth grille.
I have to say it has been a really fun project for me, and at least I get the satisfaction of once again having something that my friends can afford!
Andrew

[Letitroll98]

Great answer Andrew, makes perfect sense.  We're significantly impacted by government regulations in my business so I understand looking to future consequences and staying ahead of the curve (quite a few folks running around my office today because of a recent court decision).  And since you're opening up the design why not do all the changes at once.

But it opens up a dichotomy around here if you've perused the pages of this thread.  For those who have heard or own both the 21's and 22's, it seems to be universal approval that the newer speaker is an improved design, better detail, smoother response, deeper bass, cleaner treble, etc., yet there remains a fondness for the forgiving nature of the older design.  Really brings into clear focus the compromises and opportunities of designing a product to a price point.  As for the grilles, I remember Roy Allison telling me that the metal grills on my Allison 3's were acoustically transparent and there was no difference in response with them on or off, I will swear on my deathbed that they sounded better with them off.  Thanks for the removable grills. 

[cujobob]

I actually really like the metal grills on the BS41s I have. For the price I paid, I feel like they're really quite good. It's an especially exciting product because of the price point and because of it being fairly mainstream. I saw the line at Best Buy and was just really surprised to see a decent speaker there.

Andrew, thank you for the insight, many of us here are huge fans of your work. I don't know if you can answer this or not, but I'm curious as to whether you have a favorite amongst the lower priced speakers you've designed. I've been unable to hear anything between the super budget Pioneer speakers and the TADs, so I'm curious.

[Wayner]

I liked the first pair of SP-BS22-LRs so much, I bought a second pair for the garage for this summer. A couple of notes I could add is that I do not like the banana jacks on the back as they are not deep enough for standard plugs, however, a dual banana jack solves that problem. Secondly, was the grill's plastic structure made upside down? there are plastic weavings that go across the tweeter section, while the woofer opening is wide open. To me, this should have been the other way around.

BTW, The Absolute Sound published my letter to them about the speakers, in the March. 2013 issue (#231), and I called them "Freaks of Nature". I truly knew these speakers were something special with the first 3 notes. While the HF driver's off axis response must be awesome, I then was startled by the amount of bass, from the 4" woofer. BTW, my speakers are actually on a 12" shelf, and the rear port does not seem to be affected by it's close proximity to the wall.

Wayner

[DS-21]

Secondly, was the grill's plastic structure made upside down? there are plastic weavings that go across the tweeter section, while the woofer opening is wide open. To me, this should have been the other way around.

I was wondering about that as well.

[AndrewJ]

Secondly, was the grill's plastic structure made upside down? there are plastic weavings that go across the tweeter section, while the woofer opening is wide open. To me, this should have been the other way around.
Wayner

As always, there are reasons for everything, but they are not immediately apparent!
The grille is as thin as we can make it within the constraints of strength. If I had put ribs across the bass driver, it would have interfered with the movement of the bass driver, as the driver frame is flush mounted to the cabinet and I have an outward roll surround. On large bass excursions (remember, it's only a four inch, it has to move a long way to give bass) the roll surround would have hit the grille. Therefore, no ribs. If I had used an inverted surround, I might have got a bit more excursion, but typically inverted surrounds do not terminate cone resonances as well. If I had recessed the driver, the machining would cost more, the front panel would be weaker, and you would see the edge of the MDF, which would then need finishing or painting.
As for the tweeter, if I had also left off the ribbing, the grille frame would become too weak and might break. The major effect of the grille upon the tweeter respnse is not in fact the ribbing, but is the circular ring that is axi-symmetric, and that would be there regardless. And, in the redesign, you can at least remove the grille for critical listening
Andrew

[ThomDP]

Andrew,

Are you involved in the development of any of the European/UK Pioneer speaker designs? There's a dual concentric design called the s-71b that will probably never see the light of day here in the US.

http://www.pioneer.eu/uk/products/42/99/161/S-71B/page.html

[avahifi]

I started this thread because the little pair of Pioneer SP-BS22 speakers Wayner convinced me to buy perform so way way way above their price, size, or social standing.

So when I discovered the floor standing SP-RS52 speakers, on sale at Fry Electronics in California for $77 each with free shipping, I had to give them a try too.

They are in my system running now being driven with either our new Synergy 450 225w/Ch solid state amp or our Ultravalve 35W/Ch vacuum tube amplifier.  They are hooked up, level matched, to our new ABX box so we can switch speakers and driving amplifiers seamlessly.  The speakers they are being compared right now to are our reference Salk HT3 floor standing speakers.  Yeah, I know, comparing a $154 a pair set of speakers to a $6000 a pair set is not exactly fair, but it sure does provide a good standard.

Just to save some reading time for those that are impatient, the Salk HT3s win hands down. 

However, the RS52 towers do have a lot going for them.  They are very pleasant and musical through most of their range and when played at moderate levels.  They have no obvious and annoying vowel tone colorations, the under-riding E, O, U, A sounds of speakers with many errors of commission and pretty usual in speakers anywhere near the price of these.  The bass seems to be more tuned for good tonality rather than just more loud low frequency noise, again, a good thing in my book.  They are pretty easy to drive, my Ultravalve tube amp drives then as loud as needed in my medium sized very well damped room.  They are attractive, play with good dynamics, and are just dirt cheap!

Now for the problem areas with the RS52 speakers.

First, the tweeter, or whatever is guilty of most of the high frequency output, is rougher than then that in the SP-BS22 models, and that is the main weakness in this otherwise outstanding little speaker.  The overall musical experience starts to get somewhat tiring when listening to the RS52 speakers at higher, but rational sound levels.  This reminds me of things I heard at the recent Axpona show.  Many rooms with smaller speakers were playing them pretty softly, not letting them "boogie" they way Jim Salk likes.  I have a sneaking suspecion that some of these other speakers would stress out too at Salksound levels.

The overall balance of the RS52 is quite different than the Salk HT3 (no big surprise).  In comparison the RS52 seems to have a dip in the lower midrange and an elevated upper midrange.  This is not a big problem, just different.  However the RS52 does loose polnts in that the overall midrange transparency is somewhat veiled too.  Finally, they extreme top end is too bright and gets a bit obnoxious the louder the RS52 pair is played.  I suspect this characteristic would be exacerbated with the lesser sonic quality of the HT surround sound electronics normally used to drive them.

AndrewJ, if you are listening, think about fixing the upper midrange, lower treble range which makes me cringe a bit whenever a female singer hits that high "E" sound/tone and then you would have a speaker to make lots of designers worry a lot.

As is, these are nice speakers at reasonable sound levels, but they are not performing as far above their contemporaries as the SP-BS22s do.

But at $77 each, or even at $129 list price each, they are probably as good as anyone shopping in this Cheap and Cheerful thread could buy.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[avahifi]

Oh yes, regarding the banana plugs on both the BS22 and the FS52, you can remove the red and black plastic plugs from their ends simply by unscrewing then knurled knobs all the way off and remove the plastic plugs.  Then normal banana plugs will work just fine.

The plugs are in there to prevent idiots in England from plugging them directly into their AC power lines, which use the same plug spacing on their AC appliances as most of the world does for just instrumentation and audio interfaces.

Frank Van Alstine

[Wayner]

Thanks Andrew, I do listen to these speakers with the grill off. I am powering them with a fairly hefty Audio by Van Alstine Insight+ power amp (about 85wrms per channel) and a couple of days ago, I was listening to some NPR. Suddenly a bass moment erupted, and the room (11' X 14') was taking me back a bit. Getting a 4" woofer to accomplish such a feat is amazing, and I do tip my hat to you sir.

With this rough spot in the economy here in America, hell, the world, the needs for a quality, inexpensive speaker, just to make poor lint-in-the-pocket audiophiles smile is the ticket.

Are there plans for TAD to venture into an upscale speaker line that could be around the $700-$1k market.

Wayner

[Wayner]

Oh yes, regarding the banana plugs on both the BS22 and the FS52, you can remove the red and black plastic plugs from their ends simply by unscrewing then knurled knobs all the way off and remove the plastic plugs.  Then normal banana plugs will work just fine.

The plugs are in there to prevent idiots in England from plugging them directly into their AC power lines, which use the same plug spacing on their AC appliances as most of the world does for just instrumentation and audio interfaces.

Frank Van Alstine

Of course I have the idiot plugs out, but single banana plugs do not set in far enough for my comfort level, and my BFA banana plugs are a no-go. I am using duals and that connection is secure, but not by much. Other speaker (and amp) manufacturers have a deeper hole for real positive banana plug contact.

Wayner

[skifasterslc]

I an wondering same as doublej, has anyone checked out the subwoofer, ??

[jtwrace]

The plugs are in there to prevent idiots in England
Frank Van Alstine

Very very kind of you.

[avahifi]

Sorry Jtwrace, I should have said idiots anywhere, not just England, no offense meant for non-idiots anywhere. 

Frank

[DMurphy]

Hi Frank.   I pretty much agree with your assessment of the 52's.  I've been working with them extensively to see whether an inexpensive crossover upgrade was needed or feasible.  I think I'm more bothered than you are by the veiled and recessed character of the upper midrange and lower treble.  The tweeter definitely runs hot, although it is rolled off pretty sharply and early at the bottom end.  If it were merely hot, the fix would be trivial.  But the larger problem is that the midrange is having to handle more of the lower treble than it can do transparently.  I've designed an add-on crossover mod that hands over more of the chores to the tweeter and rolls the midrange off more steeply.  That definitely fills things in and adds detail.  But I may be asking more out of the tweeter than it can handle.  So far I've only listened in mono because I tipped my other tower over and messed up the tweeter.  I just got a replacement speaker and am wiring up a pair of the mods this afternoon.  I'll let you know whether I've improved things or just created a different kind of problem. 

[Wayner]

I've been really interested in these for my vinyl room where all I have is shelf space, and I do all of my listening in nearfield.



They are the TAD TSM-2201-LR and sell for about $1900.

Wayner

[DS-21]

Oh yes, regarding the banana plugs on both the BS22 and the FS52, you can remove the red and black plastic plugs from their ends simply by unscrewing then knurled knobs all the way off and remove the plastic plugs.  Then normal banana plugs will work just fine.

The plugs are in there to prevent idiots in England from plugging them directly into their AC power lines, which use the same plug spacing on their AC appliances as most of the world does for just instrumentation and audio interfaces.

Frank Van Alstine

You have that backward. Double-bananas were banned by the EU, not Parliament.

The old-school English plug is a rather large three-pronged affair.


By contrast, the EU-standard plug used on most of the globe is a double-round-prong (with optional peripheral ground contact) affair that is spaced basically the same as a US double-banana (19mm vs. .75").

Of course I have the idiot plugs out, but single banana plugs do not set in far enough for my comfort level, and my BFA banana plugs are a no-go. I am using duals and that connection is secure, but not by much. Other speaker (and amp) manufacturers have a deeper hole for real positive banana plug contact.

Agreed, the posts are a bit shallow for bananas with the plugs removed. Then again, I had the same issue with my Sherwood A-965 amp. I use the $6/pr screw-down compression spades from Home Depot* for the BS22's in my guest-room. They work just fine.

One could also snip the end off of a cheap sawtooth-style (often misnamed "BFA") banana, it would likely work just fine too.

*Can't figure out how to post named links so here's the URL: http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202788724?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=speaker+pins&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=202788724#.UVS_fqLYh8E

[JeffB]

Wow, I can't believe that Andrew Jones replied to this thread.

If Andrew is still listening, has Pioneer thought about releasing a higher quality bookshelf, say about $1k in price.