[roscoeiii]

How do the towers compare to the monitors?

[vortrex]

mine just showed up.  how is it possible to get this level of performance for $69?  I'm running these with something like $18k worth of gear behind them and they are not really out of place.  I just don't understand the economics behind these and how anyone in the chain is making anything off them.  not only that, but you can get these shipped free with Amazon Prime.  I paid $8 extra to get them shipped next day.  I plugged in the shipping details to Fedex and with the size and weight of the box it would cost $175.07 2-day and $337.92 next day standard to reverse ship these to where they came.

[neekomax]

mine just showed up.  how is it possible to get this level of performance for $69?  I'm running these with something like $18k worth of gear behind them and they are not really out of place.  I just don't understand the economics behind these and how anyone in the chain is making anything off them.  not only that, but you can get these shipped free with Amazon Prime.  I paid $8 extra to get them shipped next day.  I plugged in the shipping details to Fedex and with the size and weight of the box it would cost $175.07 2-day and $337.92 next day standard to reverse ship these from where they came.

Holy lord, man. Yeah, I use Amazon Prime, it's a decent deal if you buy fairly often there.

As far as how it's possible that these speakers are that cheap... maybe economies of scale, as Pioneer has a ginormous distribution network all over the world, and they probably sell a fair few of these. Sourcing the parts in mass quantities also probably gives them bargaining leverage with their suppliers.

And maybe, just maybe, the better question isn't why are THESE inexpensive and high value propositions, but why are other comparable products so expensive, and offer comparably low value? Hmmmmmmm.......

[avahifi]

Ah ha!  That is exactly the point I was hoping to make when I started this thread. 

Frank Van Alstine

[Letitroll98]

Ah ha!  That is exactly the point I was hoping to make when I started this thread. 

Frank Van Alstine

Yeah, ya think?  I was at a recent audio gathering and there were some really nice speakers displayed that sell for $26,500 per pair.  There were also some really nice homemade speakers that cost a few hundred.  Except for the bass reproduction, which could have been matched with a couple of $1000 subs, I really didn't hear all that much difference.  The expensive speakers were voiced better, more even in frequency response, but nothing a talented designer couldn't have matched in a week or so of effort.  So where's the money at?  Cabinets, limited production costs, and distributed R&D. 

If you've front loaded the R&D with more expensive units previously, like TAD, you don't have any costs to add on to the cheaper unit.  If you're making 250,000 units the cost per unit goes way, way down compared to 25.  And you're building a cheap MDF cabinet covered in a vinyl wrap compared to a furniture grade piece of artwork.  I imagine the first mod to the Pioneer will be to open up the cabinet and brace it more heavily.

As far as shipping costs for Amazon, you are aware that Amazon pays a fraction of what you do to ship something with FedEx, right?  Having negotiated shipping rates with FedEx myself I'm assuming it costs them a flat rate no matter how they ship something that's under a certain weight and size limit.  FedEx really, really wants their business, as does UPS and USPS, so they have a pretty big hammer at the negotiation table and their account is not handled by the regional sales rep.   

[bummrush]

Compare them to ice amps with b and o modules. Ya think cause one pair costs 10,000 and the next is 1,000 well do you really think the 10,000 pair is automatically going to be that much better. F no.

[vortrex]

As far as shipping costs for Amazon, you are aware that Amazon pays a fraction of what you do to ship something with FedEx, right?  Having negotiated shipping rates with FedEx myself I'm assuming it costs them a flat rate no matter how they ship something that's under a certain weight and size limit.  FedEx really, really wants their business, as does UPS and USPS, so they have a pretty big hammer at the negotiation table and their account is not handled by the regional sales rep.   

obviously, of course.  but even if Amazon pays 90% less than we do I still don't see how they made any money on the deal.

I think we need to keep it in perspective here.  these are nice little speakers that I would probably pay $400-$500 for.  let's not go overboard and think they are going to compete with higher end speakers.  for $69 though, about the price of half a bag of groceries at wholefoods, these are a phenomenal deal and an absolute steal.  if I were out to build a low budget system I would seriously consider these and putting more budget into the components.

[DS-21]

Holy lord, man. Yeah, I use Amazon Prime, it's a decent deal if you buy fairly often there.

As far as how it's possible that these speakers are that cheap... maybe economies of scale, as Pioneer has a ginormous distribution network all over the world, and they probably sell a fair few of these. Sourcing the parts in mass quantities also probably gives them bargaining leverage with their suppliers.

And maybe, just maybe, the better question isn't why are THESE inexpensive and high value propositions, but why are other comparable products so expensive, and offer comparably low value? Hmmmmmmm.......

I'm going to be really interested to compare my pair to my current favorite (by a large margin) cheap speaker, the KEF Q100.

In that case, I can see why the Q100's cost more. In my case, about 7.5x more, given that I paid basically MSRP plus local sales tax for the Q100s and $69 shipped for the Pioneers. The Q100's cabinet is, if anything, worse in design and quality, being a similarly-finished squared-off box. But man...that Uni-Q drive unit. Incredible engineering, thoughtfully produced.

[roscoeiii]

I'm going to be really interested to compare my pair to my current favorite (by a large margin) cheap speaker, the KEF Q100.

In that case, I can see why the Q100's cost more. In my case, about 7.5x more, given that I paid basically MSRP plus local sales tax for the Q100s and $69 shipped for the Pioneers. The Q100's cabinet is, if anything, worse in design and quality, being a similarly-finished squared-off box. But man...that Uni-Q drive unit. Incredible engineering, thoughtfully produced.

Look forward to that comparision. Briefly had some KEF LS50s that were superb sounding, but they were sold to finance a tonearm upgrade. Only thing I didn't like about the LS50s was the annoying KEF logo on the top of the speakers. As seen here:

[neekomax]

I'm going to be really interested to compare my pair to my current favorite (by a large margin) cheap speaker, the KEF Q100.

In that case, I can see why the Q100's cost more. In my case, about 7.5x more, given that I paid basically MSRP plus local sales tax for the Q100s and $69 shipped for the Pioneers. The Q100's cabinet is, if anything, worse in design and quality, being a similarly-finished squared-off box. But man...that Uni-Q drive unit. Incredible engineering, thoughtfully produced.

Yes, I too am a big fan of the Uni-Q driver. I feel like KEF could do a lot better with their cabinet design in general, and especially with the Q series. It's like they blew their entire R&D wad on the drivers, and at the last minute were like, "Alright, someone go fetch a box to put these babies in. Any box will do..." Not sure about them from an acoustic perspective, but aesthetically they do about as little to inspire a sense of beauty and quality as possible. There's gotta be a balance between function, cost, and physical beauty (the former being of primary concern, obs) for a product to be considered truly well designed, IMO.

It's ironic, because the Blade cabinet is arguably one of the more innovative and striking of its category, even at 30k. They 'trickled down' the driver technology, but the enclosure design was completely forgotten, it seems.

The Pioneer cabs are actually pretty sexy for the money, or 5x the money, for that matter.

[roscoeiii]

I did think that the LS50s cabinet was mighty impressive. Heavy speakers for their size.

[Doublej]

The KEF IQ series had the fancy rounded back cabinet design. I guess it didn't fit into KEF's target price point or they decided they wanted the extra volume so they went back to a square box design.

[DS-21]

Yes, I too am a big fan of the Uni-Q driver. I feel like KEF could do a lot better with their cabinet design in general, and especially with the Q series. It's like they blew their entire R&D wad on the drivers, and at the last minute were like, "Alright, someone go fetch a box to put these babies in. Any box will do..."

Agreed completely about the Q-Series cabinet, though I think the Reference-series cabinets are gorgeous and well-made. (Never seen a Blade, R-series, or LS50 in person.) Though it's fair to say that there's nothing else in the Q100's price range with a driver that has as high parts quality as the Q100s (cast basket with under-spider ventilation, 2" voicecoil, aluminum cone, double-dome tweeter, enormous midwoofer magnet, etc.), to say nothing of the IP in the driver.



Funny thing about the Pioneers...the cabinet reminds me of nothing so much as the old KEF Q-Compacts I used to use for surround side and surround back duties. (They're now in my mom's sunroom.)


(As an aside, I believe that generation Q-Series were some of the first KEF speakers to come out that weren't Andrew Jones' work.)

But I'm perhaps more interested to see what the wife thinks about the two speakers. Not only will she not know what the cost difference unless I tell her, but also she won't know that the cheapies were signed off on by the same person as our Pioneer EX speakers.

[milford3]

My first set of speakers were Pioneers.  Loved them.  Hooked on audio ever since.  Check out the Axiom M2v3's at a bargain price.  They blow away the other speakers at their price point.  James Tanner uses the Axiom drivers in his new line of speakers.  Enjoy the music.

[jackman]

Okay, my Pioneer sp-bs22's arrived today and I placed them in my system for about an hour.  They are noticeably lighter and smaller than the sp-bs41's.  Also, they sport the smallest woofer I have ever seen.  Compared to the 41's, these speakers have more top end detail and they seem to image better.  Vocals sound natural and they have surprising bass for such a tiny driver. 

They are a bargain, even at full srp, but I'm not sure I like them as much as the 41's.  Perhaps they need a few more hours to loosen up and break in.  So far, he 22's are better in many ways but I like the deeper bass and softer top end of the 41's better so far.  The 41's are flawed, but they are capable of higher spl's and have deeper bass.  They sound really good with poorly recorded rock music and I think they are more fun. 

Both speakers feature very solid cabinets and are pretty cool looking.  I prefer the traditional look of the grills on the 22'a but the non removable screens on the 41's might come in handy if you have small children or destructive friends.  My observations were based on memory. I will do some side by side comparisons and compare both pairs to a set of Paradigm Atoms later this week.  Battle of the cheap and cheerful speakers!  More to come...

Cheers

Jack

[raysracing]

Is it just timing? Every few weeks i check the price of the 22's and they are always well above $140. Not that they arent worth $140, but I canot afford them or justify them unless they are that cheap.

[charmerci]

Is it just timing? Every few weeks i check the price of the 22's and they are always well above $140. Not that they arent worth $140, but I canot afford them or justify them unless they are that cheap.

yeah, the amazon or best buy $89 sales usually last just something like 2 or 3 (4?) days. Any cheaper and we're talking hours.

[jackman]

Best Buy and Freys also had these for $69 a week or two ago.   If you keep your eyes open, you should be anle to find them for that price.  Also, check out the Pioneer 41's.  they have better bass and are very close to the 22's.  Both speakers are very well designed and pretty cool looking.  The 41's have better power handling and play pretty loud without strain.   

[vlad335]

Best Buy and Freys also had these for $69 a week or two ago.   If you keep your eyes open, you should be anle to find them for that price.  Also, check out the Pioneer 41's.  they have better bass and are very close to the 22's.  Both speakers are very well designed and pretty cool looking.  The 41's have better power handling and play pretty loud without strain.

Do you have a link to the 41's for sale? I can't find them anywhere.

[jackman]

Sorry, they are discontinued.   You will have to check the used market or ebay.  I paid $50/pair delivered from onecall.  I'm sure the 22's will be on sale again soon.  You might be able to find some 41's in your local Best Buy.   They are no longer made but some stores might have a pair.