[Rclark]

 I do think Jimi is the better guitar player, based on the feel and emotion and swagger he is able to convey through his playing, and this is beyond anyone else, it's why he still tops these lists, despite the endlessly more proficient noodlers that continue to fill the ranks. He is also technically proficient in that he is playing lead and rythym together in a style that revolutionized music.

 Frank did not revolutionize music. 

[S Clark]

Broad "Greatest" argument are just ignorant.  I thought I made this clear in the very first response about Segovia to Jackman's initial post.  Bill Russell (basketball) or Willie Shoemaker (jockey) type of stuff.  Dumb.  Next up- let's argue about greatest female vocalist and get all to agree that pop is better than opera which is better than blues, which is better than scat, which is better than country, which is.......... ad infinitum. 

Alright, enoough.  Move to the Greatest Pianist thread where it is stated up front that only replies supporting Chico Marx are allowed.

[Delacroix]

The danger, as we see of 'greatest' is it tends to require us to place some great talent beneath some other, with consequent offense taken, even if never intended. As someone who has struggled with guitar for years, I am continually amazed at the talent of so many other players yet curiously, on very rare occasions, otherwise really good players ask me 'how did you do that?'.  The real answer is that over the years I've automated a bad habit that no real teacher would allow to slip by and have incorporated it into my playing so much that it looks like a fluid skill, not an unconscious fudge that my fingers just do now whether I like it or not!  When you listen to or see another person play, any skilled performance is pretty amazing, given the tools involved (refined lumps of wood, steel strings and an approximate tuning system, with only your fingers to control everything).   To say someone is the best at doing this is a bit like asking of everyone who learns to speak, who is the greatest talker? Where do you start?

That said, can I put a plug in for a couple of players who are worth knowing about that seem to have slipped by in the discussion. These are all worth checking out just to get an earful of how well humans can do this guitar playing thing:  Lenny Breau, George Benson (yes, that guy) Kenny Burrell (whom Jimi once claimed had the sound he himself was seeking) - all really listenable (unlike some technical wizards), and all really, really great (I chose that word deliberately) players.  Keep playing and listening - it's all about the music, right?

[kevin360]

That was an excellent post, Delacroix. Thanks for that bit of reason. Referring to a greatest is irrational, but I suppose this assertion of Jimi as the greatest must be true because Rolling Stone says it is (verbatim). Then again, I don't place much stock in Rolling Stone. I laughed when I read the commentary on the selection for #2. Eddie Van Halen stated, “Eric Clapton is basically the only guitar player who influenced me.” Hmm, what is one of the things for which Eddie is most famous? I assume it's the tapping technique (of course, everybody knows Stanley Jordan is the greatest tapper ) which he didn't learn from Eric Clapton. Steve Hackett invented that little trick, if I'm not mistaken. Steve did it because he was trying to play a line he lifted from Bach that was proving impossible with a conventional approach, so he figured out a way to cheat. Some of our little fudges turn into gold.

The point is that memory is a funny (read: dynamic) thing and our memory of Jimi's influence has been blown out of proportion. I say that as one who loves and admires Jimi's playing. Jimi was, indeed, quite special, but let's stop asserting that he was the greatest. I guarantee that Jimi would disagree.

I have two questions. First, is that your ES-175 in that photo? Second, why the 'yes, that guy' comment about George Benson? I would imagine that any guitar player gives George his due – really great, indeed.

[medium jim]

That was an excellent post, Delacroix. Thanks for that bit of reason. Referring to a greatest is irrational, but I suppose this assertion of Jimi as the greatest must be true because Rolling Stone says it is (verbatim). Then again, I don't place much stock in Rolling Stone. I laughed when I read the commentary on the selection for #2. Eddie Van Halen stated, “Eric Clapton is basically the only guitar player who influenced me.” Hmm, what is one of the things for which Eddie is most famous? I assume it's the tapping technique (of course, everybody knows Stanley Jordan is the greatest tapper ) which he didn't learn from Eric Clapton. Steve Hackett invented that little trick, if I'm not mistaken. Steve did it because he was trying to play a line he lifted from Bach that was proving impossible with a conventional approach, so he figured out a way to cheat. Some of our little fudges turn into gold.

The point is that memory is a funny (read: dynamic) thing and our memory of Jimi's influence has been blown out of proportion. I say that as one who loves and admires Jimi's playing. Jimi was, indeed, quite special, but let's stop asserting that he was the greatest. I guarantee that Jimi would disagree.

I have two questions. First, is that your ES-175 in that photo? Second, why the 'yes, that guy' comment about George Benson? I would imagine that any guitar player gives George his due – really great, indeed.

I'm going to make my last post in this thread....

The greatest dead guitarist is an engimatic man named Ted Greene.  99% of those reading this will have no idea who he was.  He was a terribly shy man who only recorded one album and wrote a book called Chord Chemistry.  He didn't believe in the greatest this or that, rather be the greatest you can be.

He was a teacher of too many great Jazz and Rock guitarists that it truly is a who's who list.   Kevin, I opine it was Ted who first exposed a young EVH to the tapping style.  My opinion and not a point to argue. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sYAoRj_Fro&feature=related

Note:

Ted was one of the top Los Angeles guitar studio aces before he became a full time teacher, EVH and Ted knew each other.  There are several YouTube vid's of Ted tapping.

Worthwhile is Ted's tribute page as it is populated by those who studied under him.

Jim

[JerryM]

''Zappa never adapted to American culture or wavered from his complex music. You'd think his stuff was all improvised, but his sheet music included every little squeak, bump, howl, and yodel that was played. Unbelievable. Zappa was also the best guitar player I've ever seen. I saw him play one night at a club with Hendrix. Frank got up and did an imitation of him. I'm looking at Hendrix and his mouth was open.'' - Alice Cooper

[ZENTISH]

Hi All, If you like the music of Jimi, you should check out the new dvd called "GARY MOORE-BLUES FOR JIMI". Gary rips through a dozen Hendrix tunes as only he can. I bought it off Amazon along with the cd of the same show, excellent!!!

I'll throw in a few guitarists that I like in no particular order -Hollywood Fats, Walter Trout, Eric Johnson, Jimmy Thackery, Ritchy Blacmoore (check out his playing on the first two Deep Purple albums,way ahead of his time.) and last but not least, Michael Bloomfield.
Have Fun, Tish

[jackman]

Kevin, it's no secret guitarists all steal or borrow tricks from other ones.  I'm surprised Eddy VH referenced Clapton.  Their music and styles are so differet. Stanley Jordan is a unique performer but he did not invent or pioneer tapping. As you stated, lots of guys did it, including Hackett, Billy Gibbons, Zappa, Larry Carlton, etc., over the years.  I would say EVH took it to another level and brought it to a wider audience, in a very unique way.  Eruption has probably influenced more guitarists (even if most have little hope of playing it) than any solo of that era.

 EVH did more than just tap, he incorporated many techniques in a very unique way.  None of the techniques/tricks were invented by Eddy but he incorporated them for he first time in in mainstream hard rock.  It took the industry by storm, and spawned a generation of guitar "wankers", speed players of the hair band era!  Here have always been speed players but lots of rock bands of that era usually had a lead guitarist hell bent for lots of notes per second. I was happy to see that era come to an end!

Jerry, Alice Cooper was a huge fan of Zappa as well. Frank signed him to his first recording contract and "discovered" Cooper.  He gave Alice his first big start.  I remember when Cooper's live shows were a thing if legend the early to mid 70's.

Here is Michael Bloomfield on Hendrix. Very interesting observations from a guy who was an excellent  player.

http://crosstowntorrents.org/showthread.php?961-Mike-Bloomfield-On-Hendrix

[satfrat]

Greatest guitar player ever, died today...

I'm still waiting to find out who the "greatest there ever was" guitarist was who recently died?

It sure as hell wasn't Jimi Hendix who overdosed over 42 years ago,,, ancient history IMHO. Now if the thread title had read  "died 42 years ago today", then at least there would have been a thread that wasn't misleading from the very start. 


 
Cheers,
Robin

[THROWBACK]

Charlie Byrd, anyone?

[jackman]

Robin,
I guess you can't please everyone!  Next time I will add an "IMO" to fend off the mob.  I've enjoyed the clips people have offered.   None have changed my mind but most were pretty cool. 

Perhaps you can offer a clip or two of someone you feel is a great player.

Cheers!

Jack

[OzarkTom]

More than likely, Stevie Ray Vaughan will be labeled as the best quitarist that ever lived in another 30 years from now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZoX6Q0UK8A

[satfrat]

Robin,
I guess you can't please everyone!  Next time I will add an "IMO" to fend off the mob.  I've enjoyed the clips people have offered.   None have changed my mind but most were pretty cool. 

Perhaps you can offer a clip or two of someone you feel is a great player.

Cheers!

Jack

Jack, an IMO isn't an issue IMHO.  In fact, I'm in agreement with ya over Hendix's greatness. My issue is he didn't die "today" as you stated so your subject thread title simply isn't true with your OP.

Just throwing that out ther, FWIW. Evidently it ain't worth much.   

Cheers,
Robin

[jackman]

Robin,
I should have said "on this date" but it's not as compelling!  How do you feel about the Cowboys tomorrow night?

Cheers

Jack

[doug s.]

More than likely, Stevie Ray Vaughan will be labeled as the best quitarist that ever lived in another 30 years from now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZoX6Q0UK8A

definitely another reason why i have a hard time coming u with "the greatest".

doug s.

[doug s.]

''Zappa never adapted to American culture or wavered from his complex music. You'd think his stuff was all improvised, but his sheet music included every little squeak, bump, howl, and yodel that was played. Unbelievable. Zappa was also the best guitar player I've ever seen. I saw him play one night at a club with Hendrix. Frank got up and did an imitation of him. I'm looking at Hendrix and his mouth was open.'' - Alice Cooper

 

doug s.

[doug s.]

I do think Jimi is the better guitar player, based on the feel and emotion and swagger he is able to convey through his playing, and this is beyond anyone else, it's why he still tops these lists, despite the endlessly more proficient noodlers that continue to fill the ranks. He is also technically proficient in that he is playing lead and rythym together in a style that revolutionized music.

 Frank did not revolutionize music.

frank was so much more of a guitarist than a "noodler".

perhaps in your opinion, frank did not revolutionize music.   

doug s.

[simoon]

Frank did not revolutionize music.

Zappa absolutely revolutionized rock music.

In the mid to late 60's he was combining influences from 20th century composers, such as Varese, Webern, Stravinsky,  into a rock format before anyone else. He introduced time signatures beyond 4/4 into rock music and drastically expanded the chord palette beyond what was previously utilized. Even Peaches in Regalia from 1968. even though it was in 4/4, he uses so many tuplets, that it doesn't sound like 4/4.

As a blues based guitarist, Hendrix would not have been able to play some of the music that Zappa wrote and played, at least not at his current level of technique.

Now, I am not making the statement that technique is more important than feel or heart, which Hendrix had in abundance amount. I'm just pointing out the way in which Zappa had in revolutionizing rock music by adding incredible complexity.

[ctviggen]

Is Frank Zappa's music cold, with an abundance of technique and no heart?  I've tried listening to guitarists who are considered technically brilliant, yngwie malmsteen comes to mind, and literally hate their music.  On the scale from pure heart (say, Jimi or SRV) to all technique and no heart, say yngwie malmsteen, where does Frank Zappa sit?

[jackman]

Great question CT.  It's a question of personal preference. Frank had an amazing knowledge of music, scales, modes, styles and he mixed more styles (jazz, fusion, rock, modern classical, etc) than anyone I can recall. He played with some great musicians and pushed the envelope in so many ways.  He played and wrote tons of really complex music and was a visionary in so many ways (music, movies he produced, etc). You need to listen to his music and make up your mind.  It's difficult to know where to start because he put out so much stuff over a 30 plus year period. 

Hendrix could not read music, but he played, primarily in a trio and handled all of the guitar work, lead and rhythm, and he sang every song.  He only performed for about four years as a solo artist.  During that time he was one of the top commercial acts in the world. Other guitar heros (Bloomfield, Clapton, etc) watched him perform and were humbled by his artistry.  He played in a blues style but was not confined by the limitations of blues.  His albums were good but you need to see his live performances to get a true sense of his greatness.  Using a simple Stratocaster, wah wah pedal, a couple distortion pedals, and a Marshall amp, he was able to achieve insane sounds modern artists are still unable to mimic.  I read once that although be played a right handed guitar strung lefty, he could play it (upside down) strung right handed.  He played behind his back, with his teeth, thriugh his legs, and often used Heavy feedback as an integral part of his music. No popular artist did this (heavy feedback in popular music) before Hendrix. He also closed the show at Woodstock and was one of the most popular live performers at the time. His popularity is still strong more than forty years after his death and is considered by many to be the most  influential and inventive guitarist of all time.   

I like some of Zappa's stuff but I still can understand how anyone can consider him to be within a million miles if Hendrix.  Frank put out so much more stuff but I can't get into it. It is complex but much of it leaves me cold , similar to the music of Steve Vai, one of Frank's former guitarists. 

It comes down to personal preference, like anything else. This thread has helped me appreciate Frank's influence on music and the immense amount of material he put out over his career. I read somewhere that he put over 60 albums. Ths is staggering.

If you find something you really like on YouTube , please post it.

Cheers

Jack