[Wayner]

Wire gauge is based on amperage. If the world was to rewire everything according to audiophile world, we would simply be out of copper.

In this month's copy of The Absolute Sound is a round-robin discussion with 5 different cable designers from Brisson (Monster Cable, MIT), Cardas, Kimber, Low and Kleij-Rynveld. All of their designs are from different thinking altogether. Supposedly, all of their cable is top of the line, but it reminds me of a mathematical statement: A=B=C=D=E, therefore they are all the same????

So the problem is, they haven't a clue what the problem is, or there is no problem, and yes 16 gauge zip cord can certainly work for most. I do think that the cost of the product quantifies the quality of the sound for many.

Wayner 

[DaveC113]

Wire gauge is based on amperage. If the world was to rewire everything according to audiophile world, we would simply be out of copper.

In the audio world, wire gauge may also be based on instantaneous rate of change of amperage flowing in the wire...

[Wayner]

Which is very tiny with regards to interconnects, and only slightly larger with speaker wire (at least compared to a Lincoln welder) in which many speaker cable gauges surpass.......

P.S., Try shorting out 3 phase 480 volt lines and see how the amperage changes..........

Wayner

[DaveC113]

The fact some people like larger gauge wire for speaker cables and power cables is explained by the fact the lower the impedance, the faster the slew rate. For people with high power amplifiers and inefficient speakers, it makes sense to me that the best cable for the purpose is going to be sized for peak currents rather than average currents, not only that, but there must be some added capacity to allow for the fastest slew rate possible.

So, if you have an amp that puts out 1600 watt peaks, you have 14.14 amps at that peak, which would normally require a 14g wire, but if you double that to reduce the cable's impedance you now have an 8g wire, which is certainly very common, and I don't think it's overkill. If you calculate the same using RMS power, say if it's 400W, that would only require a 19g wire, which isn't enough for an amp that size IMO. So it's not as simple as calculating for wire you'd use for an electrical service in your house...

[fastfred]

I hear ya Fred.  Another view I have in place of the teeny-tiny hookup wire in the speakers is the size and banality of the resistor and cap leads these huge wires feed.  I assure you these leads are not made of 6N OFC and can't be any larger than 26gauge.

Thanks for that Eric (it is Eric right?) Credit where credit is due some speaker manufacturers do use name brand wire, Tannoy using Van Denhull for example.
This is the exception not the rule.

                          ........................ Fred

[Speedskater]

The fact some people like larger gauge wire for speaker cables and power cables is explained by the fact the lower the impedance, the faster the slew rate. For people with high power amplifiers and inefficient speakers, it makes sense to me that the best cable for the purpose is going to be sized for peak currents rather than average currents, not only that, but there must be some added capacity to allow for the fastest slew rate possible.

So, if you have an amp that puts out 1600 watt peaks, you have 14.14 amps at that peak, which would normally require a 14g wire, but if you double that to reduce the cable's impedance you now have an 8g wire, which is certainly very common, and I don't think it's overkill. If you calculate the same using RMS power, say if it's 400W, that would only require a 19g wire, which isn't enough for an amp that size IMO. So it's not as simple as calculating for wire you'd use for an electrical service in your house...

This post has co-mingled several facts and mis-conceptions!
a] Wire and cable end to end impedance or resistance has nothing to do with "slew rate".  Slew rate is an amplifier thing.
b] 14 AWG wire is rated at 15 Amps continuous! Continuous in the case is 3 hours steady state. Nothing like an audio amplifier's almost instantaneous peaks.
The peak current for a 14 AWG wire is 166 Amps or more.
c] If you double 14 AWG wire , you have an 11 AWG equivalent.

[DaveC113]

This post has co-mingled several facts and mis-conceptions!
a] Wire and cable end to end impedance or resistance has nothing to do with "slew rate".  Slew rate is an amplifier thing.
b] 14 AWG wire is rated at 15 Amps continuous! Continuous in the case is 3 hours steady state. Nothing like an audio amplifier's almost instantaneous peaks.
The peak current for a 14 AWG wire is 166 Amps or more.
c] If you double 14 AWG wire , you have an 11 AWG equivalent.

I don't think so... I'll stand behind everything I said except part c.

a.... Slew rate is used to measure the rate of change of voltage an amplifier can produce but it can also be applied to current, and this explains why MANY, MANY people find larger gauge power cords to sound better on amplifiers. Slew rate is simply the instantaneous rate of change of voltage or current. For music signals, we want it to be as fast as possible, and a cable with a lower impedance will accomplish this better than a cable with higher impedance.

b... What, until it melts? This has no bearing on what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about reducing the cable's impedance, with is a sum of LCR, R being what we're talking about here. IMO, it is best to size wire for it's MAXIMUM current, not AVERAGE current as you do when wiring a building. Again, people's preferences for speaker and power cable gauges support this.

c... You are correct, it only takes 10 gauge wire to double the ampacity of a 14g wire.

[Speedskater]

Dave, you're co-mingling again.

From [a]

True:
Slew rate is used to measure the rate of change of voltage an amplifier can produce but it can also be applied to current
Slew rate is simply the instantaneous rate of change of voltage or current.

False:
a cable with a lower impedance will accomplish this better than a cable with higher impedance.

Not true:
this explains why MANY, MANY people find larger gauge power cords to sound better on amplifiers.
For music signals, we want it {slew rate} to be as fast as possible,

[DaveC113]

Dave, you're co-mingling again.

From [a]

True:
Slew rate is used to measure the rate of change of voltage an amplifier can produce but it can also be applied to current
Slew rate is simply the instantaneous rate of change of voltage or current.

False:
a cable with a lower impedance will accomplish this better than a cable with higher impedance.

Not true:
this explains why MANY, MANY people find larger gauge power cords to sound better on amplifiers.
For music signals, we want it {slew rate} to be as fast as possible,

So no explanation or facts to back up your claims? I'm taking the time to give reasons why I have my theories on cables, you just come here and say I'm wrong with no arguments and no explanation. Seriously? Unless you can back up your claims with some sort of logic or reason why would anyone believe anything you are saying?

You don't think a lower impedance cable can deliver current at a faster rate of change vs a higher impedance one, specifically with regards to R which is what we are talking about? Many, Many people DO NOT think larger gauge PCs are better on amps? And you don't want the slew rate to be as fast as possible? I'd love to hear a coherent explanation for this...

[Speedskater]

Let's stick with calling it cable resistance,  if we call it it impedance people will confuse it with  "radio frequency transmission line characteristic impedance".

No one would be happy with a real high slew rate amplifier, as it would pick-up every radio and TV station in the neighborhood.  Experts suggest limiting the amplifier high frequency response to something in the 100kHz to 200kHz range.

The reason we want low resistance speaker cables,  is because the cable and the speaker act as a series voltage divider circuit. The speaker's resistance (impedance) varies a lot with frequency, so a high resistance cable will mess up the speaker's frequency response in strange ways.

While it's true that if we measure the volts per microsecond at amps output and then at the speaker terminals of the series divider circuit the values will be different, but then so will the peak values.

A low resistance cable can deliver more current the a high resistance cable to the speaker, but that's not a higher rate of change.

Both the Doug Self and the Bob Cordell amplifier books get in to slew-rate but neither is an easy read.

[DaveC113]

I'm talking about the slew rate within the audio bandwidth, not high end frequency response. And I'm talking about the current slew rate that may be different between cables with different resistances, namely that a larger gauge cable can deliver current more quickly than a smaller gauge cable, especially when we are talking about very high power peaks produced by powerful amplifiers. In this situation I am saying that a gauge of cable that equals what you'd normally use for an average current value isn't going to be sufficient and it's better to size your speaker cable for the MAXIMUM power your amp can produce rather than it's RMS rating. In my previous example the difference was 19g vs 14g wire, I'm not sure too many people here would agree than a 19g wire is appropriate for a 400W RMS amp that can produce 1kW+ peaks...

Also, the R you add in a speaker cable is purely resistant (assuming the same geometry, etc), it's in series with the speaker driver's impedance and isn't going to have a huge effect on the driver assuming you're not using extremely undersized wire. Most speaker cables are going to come in at a small fraction of an ohm for R.

[fastfred]

Oh no! Now we have yet another variable to consider: our individual aging issues.    ﴾͡๏̯͡๏﴿

Gotta go lie down now. Time for my nap.   t(ツ)_/¯

Good point "EP", that was maybe the most insightful statement of the entire content of the debate. Age is an issue,
it's well known fact,that, as we age our hearing changes. That lucky golden ear who can hear out to 20k will find his
hearing has deteriorated to 15k or lower when he reaches my age. So in addition to ageing issues, the fact that I could
be sitting listening to music with you doesn't mean that I'm hearing what you are. Each and everyone of us hears sound
individually. Perhaps we never will reach consensus on the great debate.

                                  ........................ thanks "EP"

                                                ........................ Fred Petersen (fastfred)

[thunderbrick]

Yeah, funny how at least half of all audiophiles must be hypnotized to hear a wire difference, and the other half so certain no such difference could possible exist.
Sort of like when The Pope would proclaim the Earth was flat i guess....
LOL.

The earth is not FLAT???  When did THAT happen?

[rollo]

The earth is not FLAT???  When did THAT happen?

  When eyes are shut instead of open in any direction.


charles

[Ericus Rex]

I'm talking about the slew rate within the audio bandwidth, not high end frequency response. And I'm talking about the current slew rate that may be different between cables with different resistances, namely that a larger gauge cable can deliver current more quickly than a smaller gauge cable, especially when we are talking about very high power peaks produced by powerful amplifiers. In this situation I am saying that a gauge of cable that equals what you'd normally use for an average current value isn't going to be sufficient and it's better to size your speaker cable for the MAXIMUM power your amp can produce rather than it's RMS rating. In my previous example the difference was 19g vs 14g wire, I'm not sure too many people here would agree than a 19g wire is appropriate for a 400W RMS amp that can produce 1kW+ peaks...

Also, the R you add in a speaker cable is purely resistant assuming the same geometry, etc), it's in series with the speaker driver's impedance and isn't going to have a huge effect on the driver assuming you're not using extremely undersized wire. Most speaker cables are going to come in at a small fraction of an ohm for R.

Dave,

Will the whole system still have the benefit of the larger, lower R cable (i.e. current capability) when the cabling is not continued into the speaker via hookup wire, component leads and voicecoil wire?  I would think the benefits you mention would only apply in test situations where the cable alone is tested.  Wouldn't the speaker system then bottleneck the current flow and cancel out the benefits of large cables?  What comes to mind is a stretch of 10 lane super-highway (cabling) that then drops down to a 2 lane road (speaker system) just a few miles before your destination (cone).  The capabilities of the 10 lane highway would then be moot due to the limitations of the bottle-necking 2 lane.

[DaveC113]

Dave,

Will the whole system still have the benefit of the larger, lower R cable (i.e. current capability) when the cabling is not continued into the speaker via hookup wire, component leads and voicecoil wire?  I would think the benefits you mention would only apply in test situations where the cable alone is tested.  Wouldn't the speaker system then bottleneck the current flow and cancel out the benefits of large cables?  What comes to mind is a stretch of 10 lane super-highway (cabling) that then drops down to a 2 lane road (speaker system) just a few miles before your destination (cone).  The capabilities of the 10 lane highway would then be moot due to the limitations of the bottle-necking 2 lane.

Sure, in some cases I'd think that would be true. The internal hook up wire and x-over components can always be upgraded. Most good x-over components are rated for many watts and have decent sized lead outs. Also, the resistance in a wire is a function of the length of wire as well as diameter, so a very short section of smaller diameter wire isn't as big a deal as a longer run, so while the highway analogy fits to a degree, its not exact. I don't think the smaller diameter voice coil winding inside the driver is an issue at all though, this part of the system is designed to be resistive and is where all the force to drive the speaker cone is generated.

[Wayner]

Aah, in electrical power service, short runs of a particular gauge (I believe under 10 feet) can be promoted to the next gauge's amperage handling capacity. Probably for this reason, a fuse element can be of such a small micro gauge, even though some are rated fairly high (like 10 amps).....

Just thought I'd throw that in.......

 

[*Scotty*]

Ericus Rex's analogy does not quite fit all cases. If the speaker is a multi-way design, the the current traveling to the speaker is divided after the speaker terminals and distributed to the different drivers. This lessens the current carrying demands on the possibly smaller gauge internal wiring. As has already been pointed out, a short piece of smaller gauge wire can have the same resistance as a much longer piece of larger gauge wire.
 You would be surprised at how many times 18 gauge hookup wire is used for the internal wiring in commercial loudspeakers. From
the Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas for American Wire Gauge, which assumes that chassis wiring is in air, the amperage rating for 18ga. is 16 amps.
 In my own case my speakers were wired from the mfgr. with 12ga. wire, probably overkill but but it's in there.
Scotty

[planet10]

The reason we want low resistance speaker cables,  is because the cable and the speaker act as a series voltage divider circuit. The speaker's resistance (impedance) varies a lot with frequency, so a high resistance cable will mess up the speaker's frequency response in strange ways.

Only on loudspeakers with non-flat (or non-complementary vrs FR) impedance curves -- unfortunately most of them (designers purposely ignoring the impedance curve because they assume a low output impedance amplifier  -- much potential is lost bu making that assumption)

dave

[Ericus Rex]

Thank you for the information, Dave and Scotty