The great Debate speaker wire, voodoo/pseudo science, vs. common sense

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adydula

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Hello FastFred...

I just discovered this thread....

I can remember taking home thousand dollar cables to audition in the comfort of my home with a set of Mirage M1's floor standers of 180 lbs each...

Thinking of how much money I spent on these speakers surely they would sound so much better with some "real" speaker cables... :duh:

I remember sitting there for hours "straining" trying to hear the differences that would justify spending $1K or more for these cables...

An added benefit it that they looked GREAT!! and had some really neat sounding names....something like "Audio Dragon Super Fast Clear Hi-Impact You Really Can Hear It All Now Cables" by those who would willingly take your money... :duh:

They were at least 1" in diameter and reminded me of my water hose I use to wash the car with!!

And....I could get them in many colors as well!!!

Then one day a cable on the back of my beloved Mirage M1's came loose??? I unfastened the plate that had the speaker wire connectors on and looked inside of the speaker cabinent....

OMG.

What was in my kilobuck 180 pound each speaker cabinet...some crappy "small" gauge solid hookup wire with slip on connectors that werent even silver or gold!!!!

My world was turned up side down!!

How could these sound so good with such sub standard wiring....so lets see what we could do to make this better....

Lets, yes lets take apart the speaker and rewire it with some really BIG gauge wire of the appropriate "element". hmmm would that be copper, silver or gold?

Well I never did that....common sense prevailed....and the myth of high end speaker wire went up like a puff of smoke...

I never bought the high dollar cables....

My speaker wire store is just down the road, think its "lowes' or "home depot" or many 'monoprice"....

Great thread!!

All the best
Alex
 :deadhorse:


TONEPUB

Why don't you guys just listen?

If a cable makes a significant difference in your system, that you don't have to strain to hear and you feel like
spending the money, buy it.  If it doesn't, stick with what you have.

As for Adydula's experience, if you are straining to hear a diff with anything, you shouldn't buy it.

I think you all just like to argue...

:)

jtwrace

I think you all just like to argue...
The understatement of the day!   :wink:

planet10

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Excellent comment TonePub.

What was in my kilobuck 180 pound each speaker cabinet...some crappy "small" gauge solid hookup wire with slip on connectors that werent even silver or gold!!!!

Small guage is not a bad thing (connectors IMO are). I have had, and so have others, replacing the short run of cable inside the box with something skinner (and solid and maybe higher quality) and getting a readily audible improvement. When it comes to cable, context is important.

dave

rbwalt

it is time to put this discussion/debate to bed. it is getting a bit to hard to take. everyone thinks they can make cables and many can but for the most part they are crap! all you junior engineers out there. since this is a MR section maybe we can get roger to chime in and tell us about the time he was asked by a certain cable manufacture(major) to review a white paper on cable design. the paper had more holes in it than a block of Swiss Cheese.

SteveFord

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I think you all just like to argue...
:)

Dreadfully sorry but I'm afraid you're mistaken.

rbwalt

mistaken? how so?

adydula

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Tonepub...

Couldnt agree with you more....its just my experience....

Not just with cables, wires, interconnects etc its all the stuff...

If something makes the experience better and its affordable to me I would consider buying it etc..

Its actually quite funny watching several really serious guys trying to convince each other which was the better cable etc.

Aint technology great!!

Alex

SteveFord

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Sorry, I was reminded of the Monty Python skit where the fellow wishes to purchase an argument.

JerryM

Sorry, I was reminded of the Monty Python skit where the fellow wishes to purchase an argument.

No you weren't.  :lol:

Monty Python's Argument Clinic.

To be far more on-topic, swapping speaker wires has the least amount of effect of any other cable set in my system.  :thumb:

Have fun,

Jerry


fastfred

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SteveFord
Volunteer

Quote
Sorry, I was reminded of the Monty Python skit where the fellow wishes to purchase an argument.
 Logged

No you weren't.  :lol:

Monty Python's Argument Clinic.

To be far more on-topic, swapping speaker wires has the least amount of effect of any other cable set in my system.  :thumb:

Have fun,

Jerry

Hello Steve & Jerry: Just got home from an audiophool meeting (just a bunch of guys who meet on wednesday evenings here in Midwest Canada). Thanks for the humor.
I read with some amusement about the slew rate of speaker wire. I believe they got their information from the technical manual written by Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings.
There is a proper term describing this concept, which escapes me at this time, my friend Walter gave it to me today & I promptly forgot it. I will report back tomorrow with
this info.

                                                   ........................ Fred Petersen (fastfred)


p.s. Steve how does one get to be a volunteer?

DaveC113

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Hello Steve & Jerry: Just got home from an audiophool meeting (just a bunch of guys who meet on wednesday evenings here in Midwest Canada). Thanks for the humor.
I read with some amusement about the slew rate of speaker wire. I believe they got their information from the technical manual written by Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings.
I believe the correcrt term is bod rate.


Hey man, I'm right here. I can read you. If you're going to be insulting, be man enough to do it to my face.  :nono:

Considering nobody in the whole entire world can correlate measurements to what we hear in every case, you would do well to keep an open mind. Anyway, I find a lot of what you write pretty stupid too. Like bod rate... You mean baud rate right?  :wink: The number of pulses per second, used as a measurement in digital systems? Yeah, I guess that's a much better theory than mine on why you might want larger gauge power and speaker cables.  :duh:

By the way, if you DO have a theory on why larger gauge speaker or power cables might be preferred over smaller gauge, even if the smaller gauge is capable of handling the current requirements of the amplifier, I'd LOVE to hear it.  :thumb:

planet10

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... in Midwest Canada

Saskatchewan?

dave

Elizabeth

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Hey man, I'm right here. I can read you. If you're going to be insulting, be man enough to do it to my face.  :nono:

Considering nobody in the whole entire world can correlate measurements to what we hear in every case, you would do well to keep an open mind. Anyway, I find a lot of what you write pretty stupid too. Like bod rate... You mean baud rate right?  :wink: The number of pulses per second, used as a measurement in digital systems? Yeah, I guess that's a much better theory than mine on why you might want larger gauge power and speaker cables.  :duh:

By the way, if you DO have a theory on why larger gauge speaker or power cables might be preferred over smaller gauge, even if the smaller gauge is capable of handling the current requirements of the amplifier, I'd LOVE to hear it.  :thumb:

Arguing over theory is slightly interesting. but does not cover the fact that plenty of folks can hear a lot of differences.
Sure some of them may be bogus. But i doubt all are.

The largest problem with data, and science is it is limited to what we already think is important. Stuff we do not understand is just ignored. (the flat Earth problem)
Then the issue of double blind tests. Well, my take on that thorn is the problem with double blind testing is it asks a part of the brain, incapable OF making the fine distinctions, to make the judgement calls. So it sets itself up to fail.
The part of the brain which really can hear a difference is not to amenable to making rapid judgement calls.
It is more like love, or feelings. You cannot put them so easily into a numbered system. Same way, the part of our mind which does the conscious decisionmaking in DBTs is out of the loop of deep appreciation of music we go to when we actually are just listening to music.

Science guys always jump on the DBT as 'proof' all cables are the same. People with experience just listen to cables.
Since the twain will never agree. Who cares?  I do not care if some guys think it is all hogwash, and I actually do laugh myself at some of the BS used to sell overpriced crazy stuff.
So I am sort of in the middle. Laughing at BOTH sides in this stupidest of all debates..
Since no one has to, or NOT to buy whatever.
All the attempt to 'win' the argument is window dressing, so some person can have more, or less status to his peers. Whether those peers are cable gurus, or EE PhDs

fastfred

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fastfred

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Hey man, I'm right here. I can read you. If you're going to be insulting, be man enough to do it to my face.  :nono:

Considering nobody in the whole entire world can correlate measurements to what we hear in every case, you would do well to keep an open mind. Anyway, I find a lot of what you write pretty stupid too. Like bod rate... You mean baud rate right?  :wink: The number of pulses per second, used as a measurement in digital systems? Yeah, I guess that's a much better theory than mine on why you might want larger gauge power and speaker cables.  :duh:

By the way, if you DO have a theory on why larger gauge speaker or power cables might be preferred over smaller gauge, even if the smaller gauge is capable of handling the current requirements of the amplifier, I'd LOVE to hear it.  :thumb:

Hello Dave:

  Take what I said in context, you edited out the most important part of the post I quoted, which was about the Argument Skit from Monty Python. I believe on that post there's a link to that skit.  If you're not familiar with it you should watch it. It's really funny. The reference to the  technical manual written by Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings was a joke. It was really a novel she wrote called "The Yearling". There was a character in the book a black bear called "Old Slew Foot". This reference to the technical manual was intended in the same spirit as the Monty Python skit. I once aspired to write comedy, sorry if I made you frown.

                                                         ............................ Fred Petersen (fastfred)

p.s.    I actually prefer smaller gauge wire, in the experiment I've done with MAPLESHADE AUDIO GOLDEN HELIX I've determined that Kimber 4TC the most neutral sounding speaker wire in my system. I'll probably go with that in the future.

p.p.s. the word theory means " unproven or unproveable"

Ericus Rex

Hello Dave:

p.p.s. the word theory means " unproven or unproveable"


I think in the science realm "theory" is as high as it gets.  The idea of gravity is still a theory, not to mention relativity, evolution etc.  There is no 'fact' in science, only theories.

adydula

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My "theory" is that all speaker wire sounds the same or does not have a sound....

I threw a few speaker wires in a room last night and they were totally silent???

Narry a sound!!

Must be defective!

Alex
 :D


Devil Doc

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I think in the science realm "theory" is as high as it gets.  The idea of gravity is still a theory, not to mention relativity, evolution etc.  There is no 'fact' in science, only theories.
Not true. Law is a step up from theory, and by the way gravity is a law not a theory.

Doc

Devil Doc

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Double post