[fastfred]

My name is Fred Petersen (username fastfred).  Being a brand "spankin" new member of Audio/Circle, I'd like to say I'm impressed with what I've read so far (at least in the Music Reference tm area). I'm a member of CANUCK AUDIO MART an online site primarily focused on selling used audio equipment, along the lines of AUDIOGON. One of the forum threads on Canuck is titled "What hurts hi-end audio the most?"  A recurring theme is the issue of the high price of Hi end audio, the tweeks, the mods, speaker cable & interconnect wire prices. Not long ago my friend chief engineer & owner of S.A.R. LABS Walter Romanyshyn said to me, while having a discussion about audiophile speaker wire ....."look at the wires in these Tannoy Monitor Golds which connect the cross/over to the driver. (a very thin wire).Now tell me what possible improvement could be heard by attaching garden hose sized speaker cable to these binding posts." I had a moment of clarity at that time. (because, I'm ashamed to say I'm guilty of wasting lots of cash on tweaks in general & wire in particular. I don't want to consider even for a second how much cash & time I wasted). (wonder what I can get for my old cables?).
    Since that conversation with my friend I started researching speaker cable & came across several companies that looked interesting, as well as reasonably priced, Paul Spelz anti/cable & MapleShade Golden Helix, both speaker cable designs are of twisted pair configuration. What prompted me to join the circle was the Tuning Fuses thread Roger started back in April. I'd be interested in hearing from other members about experiences they've had along these lines. Here's a couple of quotes from  the Tuning Fuses thread that resonate with me (I'm a punny guy)......

quote.............."I read with some laughter, dismay and sadness the follow up on Stereophile May 22, 2012. page 109 concerning the latest hype of Tuning Fuses. Besides my opinion that these are a horrible waste of good money I want to let readers know that these fuses can damage your equipment......unquote. log onto the thread for more enlightenment" ......... unquote

Let me first say that posting this thread (Tuning Fuses) took a lot of courage. KUDOS Roger.

More good advice from Roger..........

quote..........."I know it's difficult to do, but if audiophiles would take the money they are tempted to spend on useless tweaks and start a savings account for that money, in some time they would have enough to buy something like a better pair of speakers, new amplifier or something that would really make a difference in their listening"[/b]..............unquote

I e-mailed Roger about the tuning fuse thread & enquired about whether to include this post in that thread or to start a new one, as he said because of the emotional nature of the speaker wire, interconnect, mains cable debate, he didn't think people would care for his views.......more about this at the end.

 I'm not sure if the people selling these upgrades/accessories/tweeks are aware that they are perpetrating a hoax or not, but the designers and engineers have to be!..........I'm not debating whether speaker & interconnect wire can improve the sound of a system or not, point of fact they do change the sound, whether it's an improvement or not is debateable, in fact spkr. & interconnect wire may, with the correct choice improve it, & with the wrong choice destroy the sound. My complaint is the price we're being charged.  Here is another pompous insult to my intelligence, these products from Furutech et all, the so called audiophile grade wall receptacle. The word audiophile grade on any product is a licence to print money. As if Hubble hospital grade wasn't good enough, (I guess your hearing is more important than your life, Hospital grade quality means it has to be fail safe ie. life saving). Here are some price comparisons from an online audio store. The Wattgate 381 @$320 versus Hubble 8300 @ $40 is a 128 percent markup. The Tuning Fuse @ $46 versus the Radio Shack fuse @ 10 cents is a whopping 46,000 percent markup according to my online percentage calculator. Imagine Sharmin Audiophile Grade toilet paper. A case of Sharmin at a price of 80 cents a roll would increase to $368 per roll. Picture the Sharmin Bears using their left paw. (ouch). I'm actually amazed it took them as long as it did to develop an Audiophile grade fuse I wasn't surprised to see them advertised, you would think the quality would be there oh well (caveat emptor). Any thing more than $500 max for cable products for an audio system is too much in my opinion. Here is a excerpt of an e-mail I sent Roger while pondering whether to post a new thread or reply to The Tuning Fuses thread........

.........My interest was piqued when reading an internet article on Paul Spelz (anti-cable) a  thin solid core twisted pair design which uses a laminated (painted on) insulation. I decided to experiment with thinner speaker wire first, moving from Kimber 8TC to Kimber 4TC. This seemed to bring a noticeable improvement in detail to my system. I discovered a similiar cable along the lines of (anti/cable). Mapleshade Audio Golden Helix speaker cable (a silver plated ofc design). This stuff is so thin you could use it for interconnect. I ordered the Golden Helix & hooked it up to my S.A.R. Labs Mos 300. Approximately 90 watts per channel. Well imagine my surprise, when I went from Kimber 4TC to Mapleshade Audio Golden Helix, the results were even more apparent.  At the risk of being repetitous, my system had more detail with this twisted pair solid core design than with my Kimber cable. Here is Roger's reply......quote
........."The Mapleshade products tend to use very thin and fragile wire and if the speaker cables are indeed quite thin and have appreciable resistance that will likely be the first effect you will hear. unquote.........Quote "As to my writing about cables, I don't think I have anything to say that most people want to hear. There are to many controversial beliefs in cables out there. Thanks for your loyal support and feel free to start a thread on my audiocircle and see what others have to say."

Well I think I've said enough for now. I know I've covered a lot of territory & subject matter here. I'm definitely interested in hearing about wire issues especially speaker wire. As for the Tuning Fuses thread, I have so much more to say about ethics in reference to that thread I'll be posting some related thoughts tomorrow afternoon.

                  ...................... Fred Petersen (fastfred)
 

[Roger A. Modjeski]

Fred,

Thanks for the posting and quotes. I have been aware of the Mapelshade cables for some time and while I feel this person makes some very nice wood products I do not agree with his ideas about cables. I do not single him out as I do not agree with the ideas of many of the cable makers. They appear to be bent on making something that sounds different and they hope the listener will find their different better. However these differences are mostly colorations due to what they have put into their cables. If a maker gives you as little as an extra half ohm in a cable and you have a very high damping amp and speaker that is very sensitive to output impedance then you now have added a coloration. If the cable adds half an ohm of resistance and you like that sound then you could just as well add a one half ohm resistor that costs $1 or an exotic Vishay plate resistor for $10. If you like that you could experiment with different value resistors at a much lower cost than different cables.

I have toyed with the idea of offering cables and I would only do it to provide something nice at a reasonable price as I do with all my products. I do make custom cables for my customers who request them. My cables just do their job with no particular sonic claims other than to provide as neutral of a connection as possible. I could not sleep at night if I made the kind of claims the cable and power cord people make. It also saddens me that many audiophiles can be duped into thinking that making a wall outlet out of solid teflon is better than the regular plastic. Just how does the dialectric  constant of the plastic enter into the audio chain at the wall outlet?

Once again I state my belief that the cable mania is a result of audiophiles having spent significant sums on their systems feel that they must put some commenserate amount of money into their interconnects. I would suggest that rather than buy the snake oil from the writers of such deceptive prose that they work on their sound treatments, buy a new rug for their listening room, some new art to enjoy or a nice chair to sit in.

Some years ago I visited a man who had easily $100,000 in his system. He had also designed a room in his new home specifically for his music listening. He had the fancy cables and all that. The room was roughtly cubic, had hard masonry walls, bare tile floor, no rug, no curtains, nothing on the walls. He had been using the room like that since he built the house 2 years before. He asked me how I liked his system. I told him couldn't make any evaluation in that room. The echo was so bad we had to go outside just to talk. I can't  understand how a person can miss such an obvious problem. Just a rug and some curtains would have made an enormous difference. And I would love to have a word with the architect (if there was one) who designed an equal sided cube for a listening room.

[Elizabeth]

The op agrees the wires may change the sound, Bravo, usually the complaint is all wires sound the same.
As for prices? What the market will support. Also the fact some folks are impressed by a high price alone. ("they would never charge so much unless the stuff was really good")
((though I am also against the ulta high prices of tweaks, which can have cheap home made versions for pennies))

For myself i care less what others do or do not do. Free country.

For newbies seeking suggestions and answers though, I suggest a good 'compromise' is the 10% rule. Spending about 10% of total equipment cost, amp, TT CD player, preamp Speakers.. all of it, 10% of that on TOTAL cost of all wires: powercords, interconnects, speaker wires.
The 10% allows some better wires, and where the biggest bang for the buck is, but keeps the new person for mistakenly thinking a high priced cord is more important than the basic electronics.

I own $5K per item equipment, and spend 10% or so.  (I do confess i own some expensive power conditioners I bought used, which if added to the cost of 'wires', run up the percentage some.)

Naturally there will be exceptions, and the rare person for whom a $2,000 powercord on a $300 CD player is nirvana. So be it. Who cares?

 
Primarily  IMO, the issue is the division between the folks who try stuff and "if" it SOUNDS BETTER TO THEM, that's great. ("who cares what other say...")
And the folks who can't hear hardly anything, and do stuff because some GURU told them to do it. Or REFUSE to do anything becuse some OTHER guru told them it is all quackery.

Think for yourself. 

[Devil Doc]

I use BJC-LC1. If your cable sounds different than mine, it's no longer a cable. It's a filter.

Doc

[sebrof]

I use BJC-LC1. If your cable sounds different than mine, it's no longer a cable. It's a filter.

Doc

Maybe if your cables sound different than mine then your cables are the filter??

[DaveC113]

I'd pretty much agree. There's mostly subtle differences between 2 decent cables, be it power, IC or SC.

However, some cables I've tried don't sound that great, like the Speltz anti cable or any other magnet wire type cable... it produces an off tone in many acoustic instruments.

So, I wouldn't say it's not worth trying different cables, I've built a lot of my own, but there's no reason to obsess or spend a lot of money... once you find something that works well in your system I think there's better things to worry about. IMO, spending more than $2-300 for a cable is getting too far into the dark side... and I do think it's an issue, it makes the entire hobby look bad.

[sebrof]

and I do think it's an issue, it makes the entire hobby look bad.

I think what makes the entire hobby look bad is when people push their agenda on new people to the hobby. When someone asks about an entry level system that sounds bright (or whatever) and rather than asking and guiding on basic things like placement they suggest an interconnect. Or when someone asks about speaker cables and they are met with remarks about how people are stupid to waste their money on anything but zip cord, don't be an idiot.

The OP mentions wasting money on useless tweaks...Yes, I think we all agree that useless tweaks are a waste of money.
It's what is and what is not useless that we tend to have trouble with.

[DaveC113]

It's what is and what is not useless that we tend to have trouble with.

I agree, but that is also a personal decision. I don't want to waste a lot of time and money over things that are barely perceivable differences, but some do... or they imagine the differences to be bigger than they really are.

[jarcher]

I'll throw my 2 cents in - though this kinda topic has probably been beat to death.

About a year + I started giving more serious consideration to cables of all types (interconnects / power / speaker / etc).  Once thing I found out quickly is that a "bad" cable regardless of brand / cost can really muck up your sound - and this includes cables from famous makers.  I'll even go out on a limb and name one: Audioquest.  I haven't had one Audioquest interconnect or speaker cable that didn't deaden unacceptably my sound.  Maybe if you had super bright equipment it would make sense.  Even mid-range Monster Cable has been a lot better.

On the other end, I haven't found any cable that miraculously & hughly "improves" sound. At the very best maybe a 20% improvement if I had to try to quantify it.  Guess this is why this should be the last and least expensive investment.

At best to me it's been a combo of "fine tuning" akin to having an equalizer - which honestly would probably be a better and cheaper investment if they weren't so out of favor.  The upshot I think is that cables can help tilt somewhat your sound in one direction or another - the result hopefully being that it tilts in the direction you want and is subjectively more pleasing to you.  This is why I don't believe in "better" vs "worse" - it really is system & listener dependent. 

Lastly, I've actually found in some cases that a power cable makes a bigger difference than an interconnect.  I was also a skeptic thinking how is a thicker and/or better cable middle link gonna improve things when on either end is thinner and inferior stuff.  I still don't completely understand why, all I know is that it can based on personal listening experience, and I've used third parties to sit and listen and confirm the difference so as to prove to me it wasn't all in my head / bias. 

With all that said, I still try always to keep any cable costs to less than $200 a pair or individual power cables, and honestly I think with some experience on what you've liked or not, and some handiness, you could build or have someone build something for you for far less.  From commercially made stuff, I tend to go Wireworld for interconnects and powercords because I know how they sound, they are well made, and the lower end models I go for are still perhaps more expensive than they should be, but not so much so where I feel like a sucker. I am slightly a sucker for pretty cables - so I'll pay somewhat more for that vs a homebrew if all else is equal.

[DaveC113]

At best to me it's been a combo of "fine tuning" akin to having an equalizer - which honestly would probably be a better and cheaper investment if they weren't so out of favor.  The upshot I think is that cables can help tilt somewhat your sound in one direction or another - the result hopefully being that it tilts in the direction you want and is subjectively more pleasing to you.  This is why I don't believe in "better" vs "worse" - it really is system & listener dependent. 

Good point. I have built enough cables that I can make them sound the way I want... one benefit of doing a lot of DIY cables over the years.

One time I had a clear/bright/detailed IC (made with a single run of 26g 5N silver, cotton insulated) and a warm, bassy IC (8 strands of 26g 6N copper, same cotton ins). In two different systems the results were exactly opposite, synergy was great with one and poor with the other.

This can certainly be a problem for people, it is not always easy to tell which cable will work best with your system. Although, I still think I can make decent cables for any system... if I hear the system first I think I can make better cables for it. For most people I think Roger's idea to make a neutral cable that will suit most if not all systems is the way to go, especially for people that will not try and/or build many cables.

[Elizabeth]

The fact tone controls disappeared about the same time as the rise of aftermarket interconnects is not a coincidence. It was a PLOT, an evil evil plot.
IF you have tone controls, what need of wierd interconnects. Without tone controls, then you need special interconnects to fine tune your setup.
A conspiracy.

[sebrof]

  ...Walter Romanyshyn said to me, while having a discussion about audiophile speaker wire ....."look at the wires in these Tannoy Monitor Golds which connect the cross/over to the driver. (a very thin wire).Now tell me what possible improvement could be heard by attaching garden hose sized speaker cable to these binding posts." I had a moment of clarity at that time. (because, I'm ashamed to say I'm guilty of wasting lots of cash on tweaks in general & wire in particular. I don't want to consider even for a second how much cash & time I wasted). (wonder what I can get for my old cables?).
   

So I'm a little confused. You had them and liked them, yet someone told you they don't do anything so now you will sell them?
Or you had them and didn't like them? So what does his comment have to do with that??

[jarcher]

Good point. I have built enough cables that I can make them sound the way I want... one benefit of doing a lot of DIY cables over the years.

One time I had a clear/bright/detailed IC (made with a single run of 26g 5N silver, cotton insulated) and a warm, bassy IC (8 strands of 26g 6N copper, same cotton ins). In two different systems the results were exactly opposite, synergy was great with one and poor with the other.

This can certainly be a problem for people, it is not always easy to tell which cable will work best with your system. Although, I still think I can make decent cables for any system... if I hear the system first I think I can make better cables for it. For most people I think Roger's idea to make a neutral cable that will suit most if not all systems is the way to go, especially for people that will not try and/or build many cables.

Sounds like I should talk to you about making me some cables.........

My default IC is the Wireworld Oasis 6 because it is very neutral - and has good depth & width.  BUT - if I can achieve the same thing w/out having to pay the $75 / $80 for 1M I think they've been costing me, I'd be happy.

[DaveC113]

Sounds like I should talk to you about making me some cables.........

My default IC is the Wireworld Oasis 6 because it is very neutral - and has good depth & width.  BUT - if I can achieve the same thing w/out having to pay the $75 / $80 for 1M I think they've been costing me, I'd be happy.

That sounds like a good price... if you found a cable you like the best upgrade is copper connectors IMO. They are expensive but if you can get rid of all the brass (or worse, steel or zinc) connectors in your system that is a worthwhile upgrade over buying higher priced cables. And it actually makes sense since copper is something like 300%+ more conductive vs brass. In my system the difference was well worth it, as always ymmv...

For ICs, I have not found a good economical solution, you're looking at $50+ for a set of 4 plugs from Eichmann, Furutech, Neotech or Vampire to get a copper center pin, and about that much for just a pair of copper RCA jacks.

I replaced all my binding posts with Pomona 3770 ($8.60/ea x 8, Mouser, etc.) gold plated copper posts.

So altogether that adds a few hundred to the bill on cables and connectors, assuming you install it all yourself, but is a much better upgrade vs. any cable that uses decent conductors and construction. Especially the binding posts and replacing any steel push-on type connectors in your speakers with a solder connection... 

[jarcher]

The wireworld oasis 6 is the lowest cost IC w/ their "silver tube" plug that is silver clad OFC contacts with no brass or nickel.  It's a patented plug they make which always seemed to me a quality connector.

Guess if the option is $50+ just for similar quality plugs, then about $80 for a fully made 1M pair is not too bad after all.....

[fastfred]

Quote sebrof
      Jr. Member
 Re: The great Debate speaker wire, voodoo/pseudo science, vs. common sense
« Reply #11 on: Today at 01:21 am »
Quote from: fastfred on 7 Sep 2012, 08:03 am
...Walter Romanyshyn said to me, while having a discussion about audiophile speaker wire ....."look at the wires in these Tannoy Monitor Golds which connect the cross/over to the driver. (a very thin wire).Now tell me what possible improvement could be heard by attaching garden hose sized speaker cable to these binding posts." I had a moment of clarity at that time. (because, I'm ashamed to say I'm guilty of wasting lots of cash on tweaks in general & wire in particular. I don't want to consider even for a second how much cash & time I wasted). (wonder what I can get for my old cables?).........................

So I'm a little confused. You had them and liked them, yet someone told you they don't do anything so now you will sell them? Or you had them and didn't like them? So what does his comment have to do with that??

unquote

I'm not sure why you're confused, but, I will try to clarify what I meant by answering your question with a question. What exactly do you mean by " you had them & liked them" what did I have & like? I'm confused!
  In the interest of clarity I'll try to paraphrase Walter, the wire going from the binding post to the crossover & from the crossover to the voice coil is proportionally much smaller than the speaker wire connecting the amp to the speaker. Therefore is it not counterproductive to use that particular speaker wire? Counterproductive both sonically as well as financially.
 Hope this helps

                                 .................... fastfred

[avahifi]

Cables can change the sound of your system three ways.

1.  If the gauge is so small that it adds significant resistance to the signal path.

2.  If the cables are unshielded so they pick up and insert RFI into your system.  (Test to see if you have RFI in your room, turn on TV, does it work?  You have RFI)

3.  If the cables are designed to trade off series inductance for capacitance.  Then you are just tying a big capacitor across your output terminals.  Bad idea!

Whoops, I forgot one more system changing issue with cables.  If they have gonzo oversized termination hardware they can easily damage your equipment, such as monster space lugs that have to be tightened with a pipe wrench that then breaks the terminals off or allows connections to short together, RCA plugs not to spec that deform jacks, or cables so stiff that when you slightly move your equipment they pop off and short out the system.  Lots of nasties happen this way.

The rest?  Snake oil.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[Ralph]

For my system, Roger and others have suggested DH Labs speaker cable, which is reasonably priced; I paid about $152 for a 7-ft pair of the T-14 cable. The sound is so natural that one day I came home while my partner was listening to a sports talk show and I thought there was a group of people present in the living room! Amazing! The point is that cables DO make a difference, but  you don't have to spend 24 K (I won't mention the brand) on a pair of speaker cables to get great (natural) sound.

[rollo]

  Everything makes a difference. At the end of the day it is in the eye of the beholder. Your opinion is really all that matters. Opinions are like arseholes everyone has one. Be secure in your own decision. Do not let others sway your hearing.
  Marketing of products will give some insecurity with their decision making. Just trust what you hear in your system. Does one need an $18,000 cable to get great sound. NO. Will just any cable do ? NO.
   Is it snakeoil ? No. Is it common sense ? No. It IS personal preference and most important budget. I'll say this again if cables were say less tha $100 this conversation would not exist. Just listen and make up your own mind.



charles

[sebrof]

  In the interest of clarity I'll try to paraphrase Walter, the wire going from the binding post to the crossover & from the crossover to the voice coil is proportionally much smaller than the speaker wire connecting the amp to the speaker. Therefore is it not counterproductive to use that particular speaker wire? Counterproductive both sonically as well as financially.
 Hope this helps

                                 .................... fastfred

You mentioned a conversation with someone who implied cables don't make a difference, and as a result of the conversation you mention selling your cables.
My question is - Did you not know you wanted to sell the cables before the guy told you?
Maybe I misread your OP.