Amp for Maggies

brooklyn · « **on:** 5 Jul 2012, 05:07 am »

Hi everyone, I'm new hear but have been an audiophile for many years. Unfortunately, there are no real audio shops near me so I do most of my audio shopping over the phone or used. I bought a pair of MMG's about a year ago (this is my forth time owning Maggies over the years) and would like to upgrade them to the 1.7 by the end of the year if they will work in my 11X15 foot dedicated music room. That is the first question??

I just recently bought a Prima Luna Prologue 3 preamp and would like to pair it with a nice solid state power amp like I had years ago, but what?? That's the second question?? I'm not to savvy when it come to matching an amp to a preamp.. I see a lot of people like the Bryston amps for the maggies but it's a bit out of my price range.

I would need to buy something used in the 2K range if that's possible. I do know first hand that maggie's need power. I would like to have about 200 to 250 wpc.

Any guidance with my decision would be appreciated..

Jerry

BruceSB · « **Reply #1 on:** 5 Jul 2012, 10:38 am »

Let me suggest you look at the Sanders amps.
They have a specialised electrostatic speaker amp (ESL) and they have a specialised maggie amp (Magtech).
Both come in stereo and monoblock forms.
I am very seriously considering the ESL for my electrostats.
With the Sanders return and get your money back if you don't like it you just can't go wrong.
I was speaking with a high profile audio designer/manufacturer who was greatly surprised at their price to power output ratio and their return and get your money back policy. This guy was quite impressed.
Roger Sanders is one of the greats of audio.
You can read more about him and his products on the site.
Here is the link.
http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/products

rw@cn · « **Reply #2 on:** 5 Jul 2012, 11:27 am »

Sanders amps are well regarded. I believe that Roger once stated that they haven't had anyone take them up on the return policy.

I know for sure that you rarely see any used models for sale.

Channel Islands are also an excellent match for the 1.7s

raindance · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Jul 2012, 12:53 pm »

1. I've had many pairs of Maggies in various rooms over the years. Your room is too small for 1.7's. Maybe MG12's, but they are on the large side. You cannot listen in the exteme nearfield with line source speakers.

2. Tube amps work well as long as they are 100 or so watts per side. Jolida JD1000 is a good option. I have found tubes the ONLY way to prevent the brightness issues that plague Maggies. When I say tube amps - I am not referring to hybrids...

3. I've tried Class D amps with MMG's - they do not sound tube-like in this application. Just bright.

4. You can use your Primaluna as the preamp for the Jolida. This means you could buy the older non-remote version of the Jolida.

rw@cn · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Jul 2012, 12:58 pm »

Yes it is a small room, but with proper placement and room treatment they will sound great. Please visit the Magnepan site and read the statement about room size in the FAQ.

I haven't tried tube amps with maggies, but many folks agree with raindance.

macmagman · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Jul 2012, 02:58 pm »

I can second the Magtech Amp. I had a set of Bryston 7bst running my 20.1's but kept reading how great the Sanders was. So I took him up on the 30 day free trial (what counld I loose) and long story short the Brystons are now for sale.

I had also heard that Roger had never had one come back I thought I would break that record. But having lived with this amp for 3 weeks I set the Brystons back up and shortly after I went right back. Someday I would like to upgrade to the mono's. Roger said I would get full credit for the amp I had purchased, can't beat that.

But with all that said @ 5K it would be out of your price range, I see the Brystons go for what you want to spend in fact that's what I'm asking for mine. At the 2k range for the Brystons used you can't beat the value especially with the 20 year warranty as most sets for sale are aprox. 14 to 16 years old.

brooklyn · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Jul 2012, 04:31 pm »

Thanks everyone for all of the great suggestions. I never heard of the Cherry or the Sanders amps but I will look into them..

Quote

Tube amps work well as long as they are 100 or so watts per side. Jolida JD1000 is a good option. I have found tubes the ONLY way to prevent the brightness issues that plague Maggies. When I say tube amps - I am not referring to hybrids...

I thought getting a tube preamp would eliminate a little of the brightness that I'm getting. It's not bad of course but wanted to introduce a little of that tube magic (warmth) into my system. The brightness is only bad with certain albums like some of my old classic rock albums but most of the time it's fine.

I'm trying to get the sound that I had years ago when I had a pair of MG 2b's biamped with a Conrad Johnson PV 2ar pre, a CJ MV 45a driving the top end and a Sumo 9+ SS class A amp driving the low end.

I long for that sound, it sounded like liquid coming out of the speakers.

Quote

I've had many pairs of Maggies in various rooms over the years. Your room is too small for 1.7's. Maybe MG12's, but they are on the large side. You cannot listen in the exteme nearfield with line source speakers.

I was afraid someone would say that but I'm not totally deterred at this time.. I will check the maggie site..

jsm71 · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Jul 2012, 04:50 pm »

My dedicated listening room is a spare bedroom measuring 13' by 12'. I have 1.7s mated to the Sanders Magtech and driven by a Cary SLP-98P preamp. I took me awhile to get this combination, but I love the sound I get. I can't tout the Sanders amp enough. This replaced a McIntosh amp with 270 watts/channel. You said you know from experience that Maggies drink power. Yes, the more the better. Can you listen to Maggies with limited power? Yes, with limits.

The Mac amp was clipping a lot but I didn't realize it because it wasn't enough to get into abrasive distortion. I thought the Maggies simply couldn't support high volume without straining. The Sanders Magtech is in another league both with power reserve and sound quality. I can now boost the sound volume and the effect is a feeling of more foundation in addition to pure SPL. I gained a whole new respect for the Maggies with this amp. It is not inexpensive, but wow is it worth it.

Scott

Davey · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Jul 2012, 11:31 pm »

Folks,

I haven't experienced 1.7's yet, but the brightness you experience with most Maggies is because they ARE bright.......IF you don't attenuate the tweeters. The supplied resistors (or other resistors) or some sort of biamp arrangement that allows reducing the drive to the tweeters MUST be utilized to bring the tonal balance in line.
Only large rooms with much absorbtion might not require this attenuation. MMG's are way too bright in anything but an anechoic chamber if the tweeters are left unattenuated.....IMHO.

A tube amp might "smooth" the response or impart some other subjective "goodness" to the sound, but if it's maintaining flat frequency response (many don't) in conjunction with the speakers upper end impedance then this combination will be too bright also.

Cheers,

Dave.

earwaxxer · « **Reply #9 on:** 6 Jul 2012, 12:08 am »

I have the MMG's and have modded them over the years with different caps and silver wire. I now have the Emotiva XPA-2 power amp. Before that I was using a high power t-amp. I think the Emotiva is perfect with the maggies, in that its anything but bright. Very 'well mannered'. If I were to get the 1.7's I'm sure I would be in there hacking the crossover. I'm sure they used better stuff than was in the MMG's, but I can also bet its not 'top drawer'. The Emotiva not only plays well, but has the power that maggies need. Its a no brainer.

josh358 · « **Reply #10 on:** 6 Jul 2012, 12:21 am »

It's also true that pop recordings typically have a high frequency boost to make them sound better on small speakers. Speakers that are balanced correctly for well-made recordings will sound too bright with pop.

Some of the early CJ's had very luscious, tubey, euphonic sound. I'm not sure you'll get that kind of sound out of any solid state amp, or out of the more neutral amps that are being sold today.

I'd be inclined as Davey says to mess with the tweeter attenuators. If they require more than 1 dB of attenuation to sound right, Magnepan's recommendation is that you add some high frequency absorption to the room. But you may have to choose between them sounding too dead on some recordings and too bright on others.

Anyone else think it's a shame tone controls went out of fashion? They were far from perfect, but better than having to choose a one-size-fits-all solution that doesn't work.

jsm71 · « **Reply #11 on:** 6 Jul 2012, 01:11 am »

In my smaller room I tamed this brightness with the tube preamp, Mouser chokes, and hanging a quilt on the back wall. The room is dead quiet this way and the highs still sound great. All solid state was too sterile and didn't quell all this brightness. For me anyway, I have it just right. Experimenting with the room and equipment one change at a time takes awhile to see what works. Part of the journey I think.

Robin Hood · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Jul 2012, 04:05 am »

Tube amps and tube preamps usually sound different from each other due to design and component differences. Even within the same type, tubes from different manufacturers sound different and many tube equipment owners engage in tube rolling to change and optimize the sonic character of the tube equipment. Those with some soldering skills and willing to mod their equipment will find that capacitors from different manufacturers will also sound different.

There is also some pro audio gear that also has the ability to change the sonic character of your system without hardware changes that is much more sophisticated than the tone controls of old. An example is the superb Metric Halo LIO-8 DAC.

http://mhsecure.com/metric_halo/products/hardware/lio-8.html#tab=1

brooklyn · « **Reply #13 on:** 6 Jul 2012, 04:38 am »

Quote

The supplied resistors (or other resistors) or some sort of biamp arrangement that allows reducing the drive to the tweeters MUST be utilized to bring the tonal balance in line.

I did try one of the resistors a few months back but it seemed to roll the high's off a little to much for me.
My taste in sound seems to be tight bass extended high's and a great midrange. If I can just add a little warmth to the sound I think it would be perfect for me..

Quote

Some of the early CJ's had very luscious, tubey, euphonic sound. I'm not sure you'll get that kind of sound out of any solid state amp, or out of the more neutral amps that are being sold today.

Thinking back, the sound was probably a bit to lush but at that time it really sounded great.. I'm looking for a happy medium.

Quote

Let me suggest you look at the Sanders amps.

That amp is in the the 5K range but it looks like a great amp.

NIGHTFALL1970 · « **Reply #14 on:** 6 Jul 2012, 09:59 am »

Brooklyn,
I use an AVA Fet valve 400R amp and an AVA Fet valve preamp with my 1.7s and this combo eliminated all the brightness issues that I had. I don't need the resistors anymore. I get clean life-like sound and fantastic deep bass.

Emil · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Jul 2012, 12:35 pm »

did try one of the resistors a few months back but it seemed to roll the high's off a little to much for me.

Dont stop with the 1 ohm resistor . Experiment.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=004-.82
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=004-.51

I tried the 1 ohm resisitor on my 3.6s and agree with you. I settled on the Mills 0.75 ohm and found it to be ideal

macmagman · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Jul 2012, 02:45 pm »

I used to have a Mcintosh amp a MC352 but it ran out of power at higher levels. When I went to the Brystons I noticed more brightness than with the Mc amp. I went to a tube pre-amp and problem solved.

Davey · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Jul 2012, 03:39 pm »

Quote from: josh358 on 6 Jul 2012, 12:21 am

Anyone else think it's a shame tone controls went out of fashion? They were far from perfect, but better than having to choose a one-size-fits-all solution that doesn't work.

Boy, I sure do. Nowadays it seems the quest is to mix/match components in search of some "synergistic combination" of equipment to yield the right tonal balance, when some simple tonal adjustment might be all that's necessary. Also, tone controls nowadays can be much more powerful and focused than the crude implementations of years ago.

For reference, I use 1.5 ohm resistors in series with the tweeters on my MMG's (when I passively cross them) and that yields a full 3.0 db attenuation relative to the woofers. I find that just about right in my listening room.

Cheers,

Dave.

brooklyn · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Jul 2012, 03:41 pm »

Quote

I tried the 1 ohm resisitor on my 3.6s and agree with you. I settled on the Mills 0.75 ohm and found it to be ideal

I will certainly take that into consideration but first I would like to try it without a resistor when I get the new amp..

Quote

I used to have a Mcintosh amp a MC352 but it ran out of power at higher levels. When I went to the Brystons I noticed more brightness than with the Mc amp. I went to a tube pre-amp and problem solved.

That is exactly what I'm hoping for, with the right amp and my new tube preamp I will get the sound I'm looking for.

I would like to thank everyone for there replies so far, it's given me a different perspective on things, this is truly a great forum.. Jerry

brooklyn · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Jul 2012, 03:48 pm »

Quote

Boy, I sure do. Nowadays it seems the quest is to mix/match components in search of some "synergistic combination" of equipment to yield the right tonal balance, when some simple tonal adjustment might be all that's necessary. Also, tone controls nowadays can be much more powerful and focused than the crude implementations of years ago.

Let me see, I haven't had tone controls since I had Crown equipment back in the seventies. Personally, I would rather have a balance control but these day's I don't even have that..