Can ONE audio subwoofer be added to stereo speakers and still sound great?

cheap-Jack · « **Reply #20 on:** 11 Jul 2012, 08:09 pm »

Hi.

Quote from: *Scotty* on 11 Jul 2012, 04:52 am

If the above statement is true, than there is no way for us to reproduce audible low bass frequencies in our homes. Our speakers cannot handle the power levels required and the power amp doesn't exist that has enough power for the job.
Yet somehow bass frequencies are reproduced in many listening rooms with readily available subwoofers and power amps.
Scotty

I think you start to getting my point there

Yes, we do hear bass in any indoor environment, even withOUT any active sub arround. That's why I only switch on my sub for bass enhancement or for pipe organ bass pedal notes. We need balanced music as in any live music indoor performances.

My concern is:- Can our ears detect subtle details of subsonic bass in such detail as recommended by Hi Fi Zine - +/- 3dB at 44Hz when our hearing is so dominated by mid frequencies like 3.5KHz or so ???

Sorry, I don't think so due to the nature of our hearing despite measurement can show it on papers.

It follows that we do NOT need to get TOO obsessed with sub bass by adding subwoofers to our listeining space, to 'smooth' up the bass acoustics as 'shown' in the measurment models rather than actually detected by our ears.

Tons of audio gimmicks being promoted day in day out in the marketplace. Audiophiles beware. Please don't be blinded by so called 'science'.
.
c-J

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #21 on:** 11 Jul 2012, 08:20 pm »

c-J,

Thank you so much for clearing that up. Your words of wisdom are introspective and well delineated. You have saved so many naive audiophiles from foolishly endorsing science and measurements in order to ameliorate their 2 channel audio experience.

Thank you for correcting **Scotty** and turning him back from the dark side. I was afraid he would join the ranks of the Sith Lord.

May the force be with you.

Anand.

JohnR · « **Reply #22 on:** 11 Jul 2012, 08:30 pm »

cheap-Jack, you keep saying something about +/- 3dB at 44 Hz - could you be more specific about what you are referencing (ideally quote the article, because I can't find it...)?

*Scotty* · « **Reply #23 on:** 11 Jul 2012, 11:13 pm »

"I'm not bad,I'm just drawn that way." Spoken with the voice of James Earl Jones

Apparently our audio threshold to pure tones as defined by ISO 226:2003 is only applicable to pure tones and does not accurately represent how we perceive more complex waveforms such as music or noise.
Because the physical mechanisms in our ears are much more complexly stimulated by noise and musical waveforms than they are by pure tones, the Equal Loudness Contour Curve does not adequately model how sensitive we are to musical waveforms. The brains role in processing more intricate information containing waveforms like music or speech and how it is related to the threshold of perception is also not accounted for.
It may take a PET scan and a much more involved experimental design to begin to shed light on this dark corner of how we perceive music.
It would appear that Fletcher Munson Curves are a convenient over-simplification of reality that is most useful to those attempting to decide what SPL has a potential for causing hearing loss as determined by measurements with an A weighted SPL meter.
Scotty

medium jim · « **Reply #24 on:** 11 Jul 2012, 11:28 pm »

This thread has bird walked a bit...good information, measurements vs what the human ear can actually hear. Let's get back on subject and maybe a new thread will be started "Science vs What Humans Actually Hear".

Jim

fredgarvin · « **Reply #25 on:** 12 Jul 2012, 12:08 am »

I can certainly hear a 3db level change at 44hz. I guess if my hearing was so poor I couldn't...I might ditch science too!

On topic: I'm using one sub to underfill crossed at about 50hz. It works well, is an 8" sub that only extends to 28hz, with a steep drop off. but I do have room modes that are easily detected when moving around the room. If I add another sub I won't do it without measurements, why bother if I'm leaving it to guesswork. The Velodyne I use in my HT is a very effetive sub, but I fear a bit slow for music, I'll probably add another 8" sub.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #26 on:** 12 Jul 2012, 02:01 am »

Fred do you have two different subs in two different systems, I an unclear on how many you have?
Scotty

fredgarvin · « **Reply #27 on:** 12 Jul 2012, 04:26 am »

Yes, one for the main system, and one for the HT system. I don't use one in the shop, computer or bedroom systems. My only reason for considering another one for the big rig is the room nodes and because so many people tell me I would notice an improvement.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #28 on:** 12 Jul 2012, 05:26 am »

Fred you are perfectly setup to test the effectiveness of a second sub in the main rig. Take the sub from the HT setup and plunk it down against the back wall of your listening room. Hook it up with what ever length is required of cheap AV interconnects you need to get it up and running.
Operate it out of phase with the front sub to reduce the magnitude of the standing waves in the room. There should be some kind audible improvement in the quality of the bass as well as a noticeable gain in the three dimensional qualities of your systems imaging. The rear sub should operated at level considerably lower than the front sub. All you are trying to do is cancel out the bass energy remaining in the room after transmission and absorptive losses through the floor and walls has occurred.
Ideally you shouldn't even notice that the sub is operating unless you are right on top of it. If it is properly canceling out the standing waves in the room you can turn it off in the middle of a song and watch the soundstage collapse towards the front wall of the room and hear the bass get lumpy and or muddy.
Scotty

fredgarvin · « **Reply #29 on:** 12 Jul 2012, 04:53 pm »

Quote from: *Scotty* on 12 Jul 2012, 05:26 am

Fred you are perfectly setup to test the effectiveness of a second sub in the main rig. Take the sub from the HT setup and plunk it down against the back wall of your listening room. Hook it up with what ever length is required of cheap AV interconnects you need to get it up and running.
Operate it out of phase with the front sub to reduce the magnitude of the standing waves in the room. There should be some kind audible improvement in the quality of the bass as well as a noticeable gain in the three dimensional qualities of your systems imaging. The rear sub should operated at level considerably lower than the front sub. All you are trying to do is cancel out the bass energy remaining in the room after transmission and absorptive losses through the floor and walls has occurred.
Ideally you shouldn't even notice that the sub is operating unless you are right on top of it. If it is properly canceling out the standing waves in the room you can turn it off in the middle of a song and watch the soundstage collapse towards the front wall of the room and hear the bass get lumpy and or muddy.
Scotty

Thanks Scotty, that sounds easy enough for me to pull it off.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #30 on:** 12 Jul 2012, 05:34 pm »

Fred,please let us know what your results are after you complete your experiments.
Scotty

medium jim · « **Reply #31 on:** 13 Jul 2012, 03:15 am »

*Scotty*

A bit off subject, is your cat a Maine Coon? I had a Maine Coon that lived for 24 years and was the best and smartest cat ever!

She was just about 8 months old in the above picture.

Thanks,
Jim

*Scotty* · « **Reply #32 on:** 13 Jul 2012, 04:02 am »

Yes, he's a Maine Coon.
Scotty

medium jim · « **Reply #33 on:** 13 Jul 2012, 04:28 am »

Quote from: *Scotty* on 13 Jul 2012, 04:02 am

Yes, he's a Maine Coon.
Scotty

Maine Coon's are special....now back to normal broadcasting....

Jim

persisting1 · « **Reply #34 on:** 14 Jul 2012, 04:33 am »

Quote from: medium jim on 13 Jul 2012, 04:28 am

Maine Coon's are special....now back to normal broadcasting....

Jim

As a cat guy, I can support this off topic. You're right, back to the originally scheduled program.

Mike Nomad · « **Reply #35 on:** 14 Jul 2012, 04:54 am »

My experience with one sub is that it (and the mains) sound best when the sub is placed exactly between them, and a little back. Of course, YMMV.

persisting1 · « **Reply #36 on:** 14 Jul 2012, 05:00 am »

I'll answer this question the best I can. Will one sub work? Yes, but it all comes down to what you're looking for. I did all the reading and I did the measurements, but when it came down to it, one sub was enough for me. Could I have got more out of multiple subs? Sure, but it wasn't worth the extra cost to me. I'm not a huge bass guy, so that could sum a lot about this post. Get a sub, plug it in and do the measurements. If you're happy, then you're set. I was lucky. I had a good room.

doug s. · « **Reply #37 on:** 14 Jul 2012, 05:16 am »

i much prefer stereo subs. better soundstaging. even when crossed over wery low, where, supposedly bass is omnidirectional. if you are only gonna use one, have it centered exactly between the main speakers. otherwise soundstaging will suffer, ime. better to have decent soundstaging than optimum room reinforcement if you're only going w/one sub. to get best room-node non-interference, move the sub forward/backward as needed. but keep it centered. if it is possible to have it nearfield, best results will be obtained, ime, as the sub doesn't need to be turned up as loud, the closer it is to you. (and, since, in most cases, this will have it closer to the center of the room, it will also likely have the least room node problems the further out into the room you move it.) if it is an aesthetic problem, move it when listening, move it back when not listening. you could even try it directly behind you...

doug s.

persisting1 · « **Reply #38 on:** 14 Jul 2012, 06:34 am »

doug, I agree. Placement is everything. Unfortunately, WAF can be a subwoofers biggest enemy

Rclark · « **Reply #39 on:** 14 Jul 2012, 07:02 am »

I recommend girlfriends.