[totoro]

That doesn't make the claim correct though.

You're right, it doesn't. What it does do is make it a claim that can't just be rejected out of hand as completely untestable. If it were really about people's internal states, and not about the causes of them, then, modulo doing brain scans or something, it wouldn't even fall into the realm of empirically testable claims.

But it _is_ about the causes of these states, and these causes can actually be investigated. We can then argue about methodology, the specifics of how to do such a test (or someone else can, anyway: I'm not a psychoacoustics expert or an expert on experimental design, and would prefer to defer to people with actual technical knowledge on the subject), when such a test is strictly speaking necessary (probably not for telling if someone can tell the difference between computer desktop speakers and a pair of unity horns with a 100kw amp), etc.

And then there is still the question of how much of this sort of testing a small company should have to do to prove its credibility (since it's notoriously expensive and hard to do).

I merely wanted to challenge the idea that this is about challenging people's subjective states, and thus completely invalid. It's not about challenging the "validity" of such states, or anything like that. If the issue of expectation bias is going to be challenged in a reasonable way, it has to be on other grounds.

[TONEPUB]

Back to the original post.  Audiogon is the biggest ripoff in high end audio!!!!!!!!!

Im not even a fan of Audiogon, but seriously, how are they such a rip off, even with their current pricing structure?  So they charge a few percent when it's all said and done. 

They provide you with a world wide network of people to buy your product.  Try selling your power amp in the classifieds.
They don't really charge all that much more or less than Ebay, which doesn't always work for selling high end gear.

If you were fortunate enough to have a local shop that sells used hifi gear on consignment, they usually charge about 15-20 percent (still fair)

So, other than the fact that they used to offer this service for free and now they charge a few bucks, why are they a rip off?  I'm sure Audiogon's cost of operation is 100 times what it used to be when they gave it away.

Why is it that so many of you feel that no one that participates in the world of audio should earn a living for what they do and the services they provide?  This has puzzled me for some time now.

[thunderbrick]

One can posit expectation bias as a reason for perceived changes in sound without challenging anyone else's experience of reality. The expectation bias argument is challenging an explanation of what caused that perception. If there are people who are actually challenging others' subjective experiences, they should be called out explicitly, since they are making an argument that can't be won.

But if person a says: "there are no good known engineering reasons why components a and b should sound different, so the null hypothesis should be that the perceived differences in sound are due to expectation bias".

It is, then, a speculative hypothesis since there is no testing to back it up.  A Scientific, Wild-Ass Guess (SWAG) that may or may not turn out to be true.  "Should be" is an educated guess/theory.  Throughout history many "should be" ideas have been proven wrong.  And right, so flip the coin.   

Can we find a single, verifiable cause of idiocy?  Of course not, but we do have absolute PROOF idiocy/differences exist.  I mean, just look around at all these audiophiles!!!     Just because there isn't a single cause doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

We can however find medical reasons for some specific behaviors, such as;

[Bob in St. Louis]

 
That is fantastic! 

I KNEW there was a reason. 

[werd]

 

Now we are talking 

[dflee]

Which reminds me of a theory I'm trying to prove: The urban thug is a direct descendant of the Penguin. Especially noticeable when they walk.

[medium jim]

Which reminds me of a theory I'm trying to prove: The urban thug is a direct descendant of the Penguin. Especially noticeable when they walk.

The flaw in that theory is Penguins are cute and lovable.

Jim

[thunderbrick]

And we haven't even begun to address the SUBurban thug wanna-be!  Clearly a mutation of the original.

Edit: The first hints of this verifiable mutation appeared in the form of baseball caps being worn backwards.

[thunderbrick]

I need to get out of the life-saving business.

Doc

Uh, isn't that the business a Marine Corpsman and Doctor is in?  Eh, "Doc"?   

[Devil Doc]

Yea, but I'm retired. This mother hen stuff gets old after a while. I just can't get it through my head that you can't enlighten bricks.

Doc

[werd]

Yea, but I'm retired. This mother hen stuff gets old after a while. I just can't get it through my head that you can't enlighten bricks.

Doc

I feel the same way about pompous cheapskates.

[thunderbrick]

Yea, but I'm retired. This mother hen stuff gets old after a while. I just can't get it through my head that you can't enlighten bricks.

Doc

Are you referring to me???  If so you should talk to my wife who is consistently and stubbornly trying to do so.   

[Devil Doc]

No Brick, I wasn't referring specifically to you. I was being funny. I have experience and training at being funny. You on the other hand don't. So your opinion on funny is worthless, and subject to ridicule. Just the way it is. Those of us with experience and training have to be taken for our word. You're not allowed to disagree...because you don't have experience and training. It's not important that I can't tell you where I got that experience and training, but I got it. You know what I mean?

Doc

[Chromisdesigns]

...The first hints of this verifiable mutation appeared in the form of baseball caps being worn backwards.

Ever listen to Dry Branch Fire Squad?  The lead has a great rap about this -- "If a white guy wants to wear his ball cap backwards, then he should have a catcher's mitt...if a young man wants to wear baggy pants with his heinie hanging out, he should own a set of pipe wrenches..." etc.

[wushuliu]

I have experience and training at being funny.

Doc

R Lee Ermey School of Comedy!




If you ladies leave my island of chuckles, if you survive recruit comedy training... you will be a weapon, you will be a minister of death hilarity, praying for war laughter. But until that day you are pukes Dane Cooks! You're the lowest form of life on Earth. You are not even human-@#$%-beings! Because I am hard heeelarious, you will not like me. But the more you hate me, the more you will learn: I am hard, but I am fair funny! Do you maggots understand that?

[SteveFord]

Twenty pages and I don't think that anyone mentioned two giant corporations, Sony and Phillips, teaming up to nearly wipe analog off the map.
All of the audio magazines (Stereo Review, Audio come to mind) jumped on the bandwagon and they're gone as are reel to reel, cassette tape and the record stores.
People don't really listen to music like they used to and I honestly don't think it's because everyone has gotten older and people's lives change as much as digital (by and large) doesn't sound "right".
I'll sit down and listen to an album from start to finish but that's really rare for me with a CD. 
Don't get me wrong, I have crappy sounding albums, too, but not nearly as many as I have crappy sounding CDs.
Everyone from the recording engineers to the playback manufacturers have been trying to figure out what it is that's missing for what, the past 30 years?  I don't know if they've succeeded yet or if it's even possible.
For me, it's not those little blocks of overpriced wood to hold up speaker wire or turntables that cost as much as a house or some cable that costs more than a new motorcycle or a $50 fuse which may not actually work as well as a cheap fuse, it's an entire industry that threw away the quality of the sound because, well, it was such a technological advance using a laser.
I suspect it was also a bit of a cash cow compared to tapes and records.
Even better, you can put 10,000 songs into a little doohickey the size of a cell phone or, better yet, you can use your cell phone.
The late Steve Jobs observed that this is the first time in history people have willingly given up so much in sound quality.
I'd say that is the biggest rip off in audio.

[doug s.]

good point, mr ford.  which is why i am happy w/my humble modded art di/o dac.  it's withstood challenges of digital gear up to $8k.  yust can't squeeze much blood from a stone.  (relatively) cheap analog beats digital at any price every time.  imo.     thank dog, she who resides in the heavens, that my high frequency hearing ain't as good as it was when i was younger; then i would really be tortured by digital.   

doug s.

[Russell Dawkins]

Even better, you can put 10,000 songs into a little doohickey the size of a cell phone or, better yet, you can use your cell phone.
The late Steve Jobs observed that this is the first time in history people have willingly given up so much in sound quality.
I'd say that is the biggest rip off in audio.

And yet David Wilson demonstrated his speakers with an iPod as a surprise secret source at the 2004 CES and no one suspected.

[medium jim]

Steve, well said.  Frank Zappa did an interview back in the 1980's wherein he foretold the future. He was in point when he said it would all be ran by no more than 3 or 4 major labels and the emphasis will be on making money (bean counters telling musicians what to play).

CD's have gotten better, but good vinyl is still better than most CD's.  All the talk about bit rates will not make CD's any better, better mastering and going back to analog recording studios will.

I have a 12 year old Marantz CDP that was sent to Njoe Tjoeb for some serious mods which included a tube buffer which to my ears is as good as any CDP out there to my ears.

As I've stated already, tuning fuses, wood knobs and cable risers are silly.  Just like tubes, vinyl and reel to reel will never go away, will just get more expensive, so I suppose it could be considered as a rip off, if not gouging.

Jim

[TONEPUB]

I think what you're mistaking for people giving up "quality in audio" isn't taking into account what is "good enough" for the average, non audiophile.

If you look back to when the CD came out, for the average person that was listening to scratched records on a few hundred dollar player at worst or maybe a japanese receiver, pair of $400 speakers and a technics or dual turntable (or maybe even pre recorded cassettes), the CD was a huge step forward for that listener.  At the end of the analog run, cassettes were selling more than LP's.

The record stores didn't have a mass exodus until digital downloads took over.  Back in the mid 80's when CD's got popular, record stores actually expanded.  Look at the big Tower, Virgin Megastores and even the major bookstore chains, as well as Best Buy, Tweeter and Circuit city all started selling CD's.

Last but not least, the record companies adopted the CD mainly because they felt analog was too easy to pirate from LP to bootleg cassette.

Kind of wacky if you think about it.