has anyone ever heard one of these before?

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johnzm

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #80 on: 9 Jun 2012, 06:51 pm »
DS-21,

where are you in GA? I am near Lawrenceville and would split shipping, if you wanted to.

Freo-1

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #81 on: 9 Jun 2012, 08:50 pm »
Danny,
Thanks for taking time to answer my questions.  I have to admit though that I simply do not hear the problems with the SEAS drivers in my speakers which you refer to.  Using a Pass Labs XA 30.5 power amp, a X 2.5 preamp, and a Modwright Oppo BDP 95 with the tube stage, the sound from the speakers, which have 2 Seas W18E001 Woofers, and Seas T25CF-002 Tweeters (in a sealed box design) is outstanding (to my ears). 
 
According to Mr. Linkwitz, his observation regarding the SEAS woofers does not appear to match your observations from either a measurement or subjective standpoint, as listed here: 
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/x-mid_dist.htm
 
Lastly, the cost associated with the SEAS magnesium drivers may very well factor into a given manufactures decision process as to use or not use them in their speaker line.  It's entirely possible a new line of speakers were developed (changed) in order to remain competitive for pricing purposes.  Assuming that it simply sounds better is subjective.

Danny Richie

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #82 on: 9 Jun 2012, 09:07 pm »
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Danny,
Thanks for taking time to answer my questions.  I have to admit though that I simply do not hear the problems with the SEAS drivers in my speakers which you refer to.  Using a Pass Labs XA 30.5 power amp, a X 2.5 preamp, and a Modwright Oppo BDP 95 with the tube stage, the sound from the speakers, which have 2 Seas W18E001 Woofers, and Seas T25CF-002 Tweeters (in a sealed box design) is outstanding (to my ears).

Sometimes you won't know how much better a driver can be until you hear one that clearly betters it. An A/B comparison will make it easier to hear the short comings. For some people that's what it takes. For others listening to it for even the first time is a notable backwards step. 

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According to Mr. Linkwitz, his observation regarding the SEAS woofers does not appear to match your observations from either a measurement or subjective standpoint, as listed here: 
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/x-mid_dist.htm

With all due respect to Mr. Linkwitz he is just looking at one aspect (distortion) and it is the least significant aspect one could look it. It will tell you nothing about how a driver sounds.

See some measurements of it on Madisonds web site. The upper range break up and ringing is plain to see.



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Lastly, the cost associated with the SEAS magnesium drivers may very well factor into a given manufactures decision process as to use or not use them in their speaker line.  It's entirely possible a new line of speakers were developed (changed) in order to remain competitive for pricing purposes.  Assuming that it simply sounds better is subjective.

I can't speak for other companies by my client that was using them came to be because I had told him several times that I could design him a better sounding woofer than the one that he was using. As it turns out, I was correct. His whole product line is now much better. And we aren't ASSUMING that it sounds better. We KNOW that it sounds better.

Freo-1

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #83 on: 9 Jun 2012, 09:44 pm »
The breakup at higher frequencies with the SEAS driver is a non issue PROVIDED the crossover is designed correctly.

From Mr. Linkwitz link:
 
“A most remarkable driver is the SEAS W18EX001 because of its excellent linearity, though its burst performance degrades somewhat at 1200 Hz and above, even with no cone breakup below 3 kHz. It is well built with an open cast basket, fully vented spider, and no pole vent.” 
 
 
That does not sound like a sub-optimum driver to me, nor does it measure like one.  Sounds as if you are asserting that a driver can measure better, provide no cone breakup, and still sound worse.  How is that possible?   :scratch:

Danny Richie

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #84 on: 9 Jun 2012, 10:09 pm »
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The breakup at higher frequencies with the SEAS driver is a non issue PROVIDED the crossover is designed correctly.

You have to cross it low and steeply. Even still the ringing is still present just down in amplitude.

Linkwitz gets rid of it well by crossing it over below 1.4kHz and very steeply with an electronic crossover. And Jeff Joseph controls it with his very steep elliptical crossover.

Anything else is going to leave a slight ring. I always hear it in the trailing edges of piano notes with that woofer. It always has the little extra ring.

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That does not sound like a sub-optimum driver to me, nor does it measure like one

I wouldn't say it was sub optimal, but it does have it's problems and that is easily seen in its measurements.

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Sounds as if you are asserting that a driver can measure better, provide no cone breakup, and still sound worse.  How is that possible?
 

Sure. Did you think all drivers sound the same if they measure the same?

One time I had the same driver made with 7 different cone materials. All else was the same. Would you think them all to sound the same? Not at all. All were quite different.

I can change the type of adhesive used to glue on the surround and change the upper range break up, its stored energy, and how it sounds.   

Freo-1

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #85 on: 9 Jun 2012, 10:26 pm »
Danny,
 
Regarding the Coherent speaker, John got back to me, and submits the following:
 
“Valid point...Early reflections are an important issue.  What's not obvious in the photo is a large hole cut out window  above, with a special window foam insert below. Reflections within the tweeter "cavity" are about 85% down from the same type of cavity, untreated.
Hope this helps”
 
So, that is the answer.

Freo-1

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #86 on: 9 Jun 2012, 10:29 pm »
You have to cross it low and steeply. Even still the ringing is still present just down in amplitude.

Linkwitz gets rid of it well by crossing it over below 1.4kHz and very steeply with an electronic crossover. And Jeff Joseph controls it with his very steep elliptical crossover.

Anything else is going to leave a slight ring. I always hear it in the trailing edges of piano notes with that woofer. It always has the little extra ring.

I wouldn't say it was sub optimal, but it does have it's problems and that is easily seen in its measurements.
 

Sure. Did you think all drivers sound the same if they measure the same?

One time I had the same driver made with 7 different cone materials. All else was the same. Would you think them all to sound the same? Not at all. All were quite different.

I can change the type of adhesive used to glue on the surround and change the upper range break up, its stored energy, and how it sounds.

Fair enough.  Thanks for taking time to respond and explain/relate your experiences.

Danny Richie

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #87 on: 9 Jun 2012, 10:54 pm »
Danny,
 
Regarding the Coherent speaker, John got back to me, and submits the following:
 
“Valid point...Early reflections are an important issue.  What's not obvious in the photo is a large hole cut out window  above, with a special window foam insert below. Reflections within the tweeter "cavity" are about 85% down from the same type of cavity, untreated.
Hope this helps”
 
So, that is the answer.

Very good. Sometimes things are not what they appear to be.

And thanks for posting that and your questions.

paulspencer

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #88 on: 10 Jun 2012, 03:04 am »
An interesting thing about this thread is the tension between objectivism and subjetivism. Sometimes we end up in our little camps and it becomes a trench war. I have to say that I don't like it that way because many lessons are lost in warfare! Valid points aren't acknowledged and the brain power better used in learning is turned into proving one's point, being right and fortifying whatever view you came to the battle with, at all cost!

Personally I describe myself as a moderate objectivist. In other words, I believe in the scientific method as the best path to reveal the truth, that differences can be revealed with measurements and that as Paul Klipsch succinctly pointed out, if two things sound the same and measure differently, you're measuring the wrong thing!

However, we also live in the real world where it's probably not worth trying to quantify and measure everything. Where if we find that one cap sounds better despite measuring "close enough," we might not be on a huge mission to find that measurement that tells us why. We probably want to test it under controlled conditions if we think it's really important to be sure, but it's probably not worth it just to prove ourselves right in an internet debate where the stakes are so low!

When it comes to a driver that rings like mad, this is where we want to be measuring to see what we are getting. You can sit back with some music and say "I don't notice a problem!" Trouble is, it might be a reflection on the music you are using, or that you are simply not recognising a problem that is there. Perhaps if it were fixed and you could switch instantly from fixed to unfixed, you would then say "WOW I had no idea it was that bad!" Then you can't go back to unfixed - your brain gets a lock on the problem and now you hear it all the time - this is what I call the man in the moon effect. One seen, you can't "unsee." Try as you might to tell youself, there is no man in the moon, you will always see it. There was one really big blind test in the industry, I believe with thousands who could not hear a problem with a particular codec. One engineer thought it was nonsense, that he could hear it plainly. He pointed it out to those in the test, suddenly everyone could hear it.

I think most of the time there is a problem with subjective comparisons that are done. I was involved in an informal blind test of sorts, with DACs. We were comparing 3 of them. Lampizator, Lenehan PDX (an Aussie local DAC that you might call "mid priced") and a Playback designs unit with its own inbuilt DAC. I believe they were worth about 7k, 3k and 12k or something like that. We had a room full of people listening to a very resolving system, instantly switching from one to the other. Host would say which DAC was being played, then we'd listen. Then we had some runs of trying to pick them blind. I noticed two obvious differences - they each had a different gain level, and a diffferent perceived tonal balance. Obvious enough that I could tell them apart blind without much difficulty. One thing I noticed was that the group, being more towards subjectivist, were all listening subjectively for the overall "feel" of the DACs. When I had the differences figured out, listening in a more deliberate and focused way, I announced "right, A was PDX, B was Playback designs, C was Lampizator." The others who had been listening in a more general way piped up "oh no no, that's not right. I think ...."

Guess who was right? Yup, you guessed it. Not suprising since I had focused carefully on the more obvious cues - a very artificial way of listening, but far more reliable if you need to find something. To be a more serious test, we really needed to have them at least matched in level. Perhaps even corrected in the digital domain for any frequency response shifts. Otherwise we might be comparing tone controls. This is why you have to treat internet opinions on these things with some caution, if you want to know the truth. The degree of rigour to really weed out anything misleading, is usually well beyond what people are willing to put in.

Now if we are going to compare crossover parts then I think what we really want is a setup where you can sit in the listening position and press a switch that instantly changes over from one to the other with no break in the music. This probably means using a relay in place of a manual switch. You power the relay with a little plugpack and switch the power into the plugpack with a remote GPO switch. This would also allow comparisons of cables and perhaps just about anything except a source.

Rclark

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #89 on: 10 Jun 2012, 05:44 am »
Quote from: paulspencer


When it comes to a driver that rings like mad, this is where we want to be measuring to see what we are getting. You can sit back with some music and say "I don't notice a problem!" Trouble is, it might be a reflection on the music you are using, or that you are simply not recognising a problem that is there. Perhaps if it were fixed and you could switch instantly from fixed to unfixed, you would then say "WOW I had no idea it was that bad!" Then you can't go back to unfixed - your brain gets a lock on the problem and now you hear it all the time - this is what I call the man in the moon effect. One seen, you can't "unsee." Try as you might to tell youself, there is no man in the moon, you will always see it. There was one really big blind test in the industry, I believe with thousands who could not hear a problem with a particular codec. One engineer thought it was nonsense, that he could hear it plainly. He pointed it out to those in the test, suddenly everyone could hear it.


 
 I think you really hit on something there, at least partly explaining break in, and perhaps why some abx tests can be flawed. With audio systems we need time to adjust to all the new changes. Perhaps even a week or more. That time to adjust eventually illuminates what the engineer can otherwise quickly point out.

paulspencer

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #90 on: 10 Jun 2012, 11:33 am »

 I think you really hit on something there, at least partly explaining break in, and perhaps why some abx tests can be flawed. With audio systems we need time to adjust to all the new changes. Perhaps even a week or more. That time to adjust eventually illuminates what the engineer can otherwise quickly point out.

You can spend years, if not decades not being bothered by substantial problems that could easily be fixed. The fix can sometimes be shown in a very short space of time and it might take moments to undo all those years of thinking "this is fine." It's true that you can start to pick up on certain things over time, but the key here is observation, which may or may not need time. It's also about having relevant experiences and developing an ear for particular things. Often hearing something vs not hearing it is related to paying attention to the right thing, and knowing what you are listening for. He who knows what to listen for, and pays attention to just that one thing will easily notice what 100 people listening in a non specific way will never hear.

studiotech

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #91 on: 10 Jun 2012, 03:10 pm »
You can spend years, if not decades not being bothered by substantial problems that could easily be fixed. The fix can sometimes be shown in a very short space of time and it might take moments to undo all those years of thinking "this is fine." It's true that you can start to pick up on certain things over time, but the key here is observation, which may or may not need time. It's also about having relevant experiences and developing an ear for particular things. Often hearing something vs not hearing it is related to paying attention to the right thing, and knowing what you are listening for. He who knows what to listen for, and pays attention to just that one thing will easily notice what 100 people listening in a non specific way will never hear.

Very good point.  Listening critically is a SKILL, just like any other endeavor.  I find many hobbyists (and professional recording engineers for that matter) just don't know what to listen for or can even hear it if one points out an issue.  Just trying to listen to as many systems as possible can be very educational for ones hearing skill and judgement.  This is only possible with a reference CD or selections to have any hope of continuity that can be assessed between systems.

Greg

cujobob

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #92 on: 10 Jun 2012, 11:39 pm »
Earl Geddes has an interview posted on his website that talks of how 'golden eared' audiophiles aren't as adept as they think. The ear is a useful tool but only to decipher measurements imho.

paulspencer

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #93 on: 11 Jun 2012, 12:02 am »
Earl Geddes has an interview posted on his website that talks of how 'golden eared' audiophiles aren't as adept as they think. The ear is a useful tool but only to decipher measurements imho.

I saw a Geddes interview the other day, it may be the same one, very interesting and he has some good points. Earl is a very strong objectivist. Where audiophiles tend to exaggerate a great deal about small audible differences, Earl tends to go the other way and downplay them. I think the truth is somewhere in between those two. A lot of "night and day" differences that audiophiles talk about are actually just subtle differences. Sometimes those who get fixated on those are missing blindingly obvious problems that need fixing.

gotchaforce

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #94 on: 11 Jun 2012, 12:06 am »
Regardless of what i believe on this subject kudos to danny richie for allowing such a discussion when realistically im pretty sure he could close the thread, delete posts, and maybe even ban people (not sure if hes an administrator). On other forums *cough CHT cough* ANY type of discussion like this wouldnt exist...


johnzm

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #95 on: 11 Jun 2012, 12:07 am »
speaking of geddes..  do they have that horn honk? I would like to hear em, but the WAF is so low i doubt I could ever bring a pair in.  the youtube video's of the danleys seem to have a little horn sound to em i tihnk. anyone else hear that?

and I agree with the above poster. Danny is the man! I hope that DS-21 guy puts his money where his mouth is and takes Danny up on the demo of those berhingers. Sadly, he seems like the typical AVS guy :duh: haha

cujobob

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #96 on: 11 Jun 2012, 12:24 am »
Gedlee speakers arent like typical horns at all, they definitely need to be heard.

Tom Danley

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #97 on: 11 Jun 2012, 02:56 am »
Hi Paul
You bring up something I have noticed as well (that your ears can tune into a flaw after it’s pointed out).
In the generation loss recordings of loudspeakers we were making at work, each generation was an increasing caricature of ‘what is wrong” (everything that prevented it from being faithful to the input signal becomes further exaggerated at each generation).  Once one heard the caricature of the problem, it often because plainly audible listening directly.    What was interesting was compared to electronics, how few generations some loudspeakers will tolerate before being unlistenable, some sound bad just hearing them (from a single point in space as opposed to two ears) through a measurement mic.  Even an SH-50 is sounding kind of lame on generation 3 or 4.
Also, the idea that a driver with a large breakup peak can be fixed with a crossover is flawed or at best a rubber glove fix for a leaking pen.
The reason is that the peak is additional acoustic gain over the main operating band.  Lets say you had a +10dB peak at 3KHz, a crossover well below that can produce a nice response curve BUT no matter what one does with electrical filters, the harmonic distortion the driver produces below there is still amplified by that peak.  For instance, if the excess acoustic gain is at +10dB @ 3KHz, then at 1KHz the 3rd harmonic will be raised about 10 times (+10dB also), for every sub multiple the harmonic component  is raised similarly.
On the other hand, if one were using an acoustic low pass filter (like the Synergy horns have for ranges below the hf) then the harmonic components which fall above that corner are attenuated ( in the Synergy horn, before entering the horn passageway)  and the harmonic distortion lowered .
In reading some of the speculation about the Synergy horns here, there are a few other things which should be addressed or people might assume those were valid.
One thing which is sort of funny is that in hifi the 1 m measurements hold so much importance and for engineering a sound system they have a specific purpose, but it’s weird how un-interested people are about how the speaker measures at the listening position.  Here is why directivity matters even in the relatively tiny space of a living room.   With a dead flat “hifi” speaker one might measure a response + - 10 or even + - 20dB at the typical listening distance (in the latter case with a bare hardwood floor), with the front to back ratio of an SH-50 in the same place in the same room, the response is essentially unaltered above a few hundred Hz.
Best,
Tom Danley


Jonathon Janusz

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Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #98 on: 11 Jun 2012, 04:17 am »
For one, it would have meant redesigning the whole speaker. Testing, measuring, and everything all over again.
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And for him there was no other solution.

. . . So, Danny, about that as yet unavailable V1 tweeter/8" p-audio coax driver passive crossover. . .? :D

tesseract

Re: has anyone ever heard one of these before?
« Reply #99 on: 11 Jun 2012, 04:20 am »
Regardless of what i believe on this subject kudos to danny richie for allowing such a discussion when realistically im pretty sure he could close the thread, delete posts, and maybe even ban people (not sure if hes an administrator). On other forums *cough CHT cough* ANY type of discussion like this wouldnt exist...

Why not live up to the standard Danny has set and avoid derailing this thread by smearing another manufacturer's forum?    :wink: