[Diamond Dog]

That's possible, I admit. But the direction, to me, is not all negative. If I have to choose between $35+ high-rez albums or 18 million tracks at 320 kbps for $10 a month, I know which one I'm more excited about.

I hear you, Neeko.  But for folks like you and me who like new music and a lot of variety, I just hope we don't end up like SACD fans - facing extremely limited selection in most genres and pricing that is just silly. Worst of both worlds.

D.D.

[Diamond Dog]

He didn't say the Smashing Pumpkins changed the world, did he?  He said 'his generation' did.  Not the same thing.  Probably referring to the whole alternative and grunge movement that did change the face of music, and more specifically rock music.   Not that that movement was the first to do so by any means, but it may have been the most recent.

Stop drinking so much coffee, you apparently did miss something.

Dead and buried?   This implies the last CD pressing plant closed a while ago.  Seeing as how CDs are being pressed everyday by quite a few plants, I beg to differ.  The CD isn't as prosperous as it used to be, but what is?   8-Track is dead and buried.  Laser Disc is dead and buried.  VHS is dead and buried.  If you think plants stopped pressing CDs, go to any store that sells music on Tuesday.

So who knows?  Apparently not you.  "...the CD format dead and buried..." sounds pretty absolute to me.  Saying something inflammatory based on who knows what opinion is very weak.  On top of that, you didn't even state IMO or anything close.

Nice day for a walk, Stu Pitt. Or to play with your kids. Or to do anything other than this.  ^^^^^

D.D.

[James Tanner]

Can we call a truce?

James

[werd]

It's not true hobbyist (call em audiophiles or whatever) that are hurting the audio industry. Its the trolls that subsequently post and i suppose the lack of moderation on audio boards too.

For eg. which one of these posts would be more detrimental to the audio industry?

I was listening to a brand A SS and compared to brand B SS amp i found A to be better suited using my pre amp.
or

What are you talking about all SS amps sound the same. You are obviousily delusional. My 100 watt reciever is all i need.

So its easy to see the person who wrote the OP article doesn't post as an audiophile or probably doesn't even listen to his own music at home in the sweet spot. He doesn't understand how audio boards play out.

[Stu Pitt]

Nice day for a walk, Stu Pitt. Or to play with your kids. Or to do anything other than this.  ^^^^^

D.D.

Likewise.

I'm done with it, James.

[django11]

My two cents...

  "Do they think musicians say to themselves, “let’s make a sucky recording?” ", and "With the amount of work he’s putting in on the song and the effort that will be taken to record it, could anyone think he or our recording engineer, Mike Blewitt, will do anything other than their best to make it the highest quality rendition of the song?".

I could understand if this applied to my three year old's best effort at drawing.  Speaking of adults and professionals, if their  best effort is bad in my opinion, and I paid my hard earned money for it, do I need to applaud it so as to not hurt their feelings?

The internet can be a brutal place.  On the other hand it can turn you into a success very quickly if people like your stuff.

[James Tanner]

Hi Folks,

I was asked a week ago on another board what my thoughts were on this so I may as well regurgitate it here:


Hi,

I can understand both sides of the discussion – (after all I am a Libra). Over the years I have met many recording engineers that try and make the best product they know how but sometimes it is not their call. I do not think engineers want to produce bad recordings but in a lot of cases their client (the guy who pays the bill) insists on a particular sound – example – the loudness wars.

About 15 years ago we installed a Bryston/PMC mastering system at Sony mastering in NY and the recording engineer there – Vlado Meller – was the first engineer to confide in me that the system we were installing was not for him but for his clients. It had to make them happy regardless of what he may prefer. Sure there were those clients that relied on his opinions but in the pop music world his input was rarely asked for. Obviously the sale of the finished album is all that matters to the record companies and if past experience is telling them that product A outsells product B then product A is how it is going to be done.

So I think we have every right as audiophiles to be critical of what is turned out by the majors but being aware that it is caused by what ultimately sells rather than calling everyone involved in the pop music industry idiots is not fair either.

From the other end of the scale I can see how, as an audiophile, the concern for the issues we all discuss as audio enthusiast like soundstage, image placement, depth, tonal balance etc. are foreign terms to the average music listen (and some engineers) and pontificating at what makes them wrong and us right does not further the cause either. When I was starting out in my teens my first speakers were corner horns and I remember I would get a huge ‘rush’ playing most of my music through them. When I started becoming more sophisticated in my tastes - critically assessing rather than just listening the ‘frustration factor’ definitely went up and I realized I was not enjoying the music as much.

My problem now is I have evolved to the point where if the audio system does not recreate the whole audio package I have difficulty enjoying the sound. I went to a wedding a few months back and it was a nightmare – it was a live group and it was still some of the worst sound I have heard. I just cannot listen to much of what gets released in the pop music world today. I do not try and be a missionary anymore though as I use to do in my early days as an audiophile. Standing on the dance floor at the wedding and screaming you guys sound like crap would have certainly got me thrown out! I am just not sure being the small group we are if we can exert enough pressure to actually change things – the signs are not encouraging at this point.

So, on the one hand I understand the pressures and constraints the recording industry is under to sell to the population at large rather than us few economically insignificant audio types and on the other hand how frustrating it is for someone with a great audio system to acquire material worth listening too – I want the ‘rush’ back!!!!

james

[rollo]

 James, well written. Years ago the major labels had pride in the product. Miracle surface, Dynagroove. London, Decca, RCA Living Stereo all advertised "Better sonics" through engineering, miking and so on. today it is the bottm line instead.
   I believe most of us own some recording  that are not VG sonically however we love the music and still get emotional impact. The music provides the emotion, the system provides the goosebumps. If LP or CD were better produced even more emotion.. I feel the same way you do listening to inferior sound, I'm spoiled.  It was the Audiophiles who pushed the majors back into vinyl, then the rest caught on again. LP sales are up big time.
   We will never forget Sony and the introduction of CD. Remember the LPs at the time were  made inferior so CD would be more accepted. Kinda like green energy. IMO they did the same when SACD was released. How many of you sold your LPs ? Glad I didn't.
     We have first hand experience in recording and the ills associated with the "final" product. Money [ sales ] talks sonics walk in the end.  The engineers could not have produced a better sound on the master. it was brilliant. Pressing of such was the issue. It is NOt always the Engineer it is the "investors" who call the final shot. All we want is a quality product for $22.95.
    So whomever is responsible should take the blame. Not the Audiophile not the Engineer. The producers more than anyone.



charles

[rbbert]

The enigma, though, is that almost always, when a non-audiophile is sat down to listen to compressed vs less-compressed, level matched music, almost everyone prefers the less-compressed music.   

[bummrush]

to a point i will listen to inferior recordings,but not often.Like no mater how bad i want to listen aqualung its not happeneing with the sound of that disc.but yes you do have to take what you get at times

[OzarkTom]

At 2011 RMAF, I talked to an audiophile distributor for a couple of hours that goes and sells audiophile equipment to the Pro market. His comment, while we are spending hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars on cabling for our systems, all they use is the cheap Monster Cables.

His comment was that someone needs to go and teach these guys to the real audiophile market.

[mrhyfy]

At 2011 RMAF, I talked to an audiophile distributor for a couple of hours that goes and sells audiophile equipment to the Pro market. His comment, while we are spending hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars on cabling for our systems, all they use is the cheap Monster Cables.

His comment was that someone needs to go and teach these guys to the real audiophile market.

Yeah,,and there's way better value than MONSTER cable!!

[Diamond Dog]

 When I started becoming more sophisticated in my tastes - critically assessing rather than just listening the ‘frustration factor’ definitely went up and I realized I was not enjoying the music as much.

My problem now is I have evolved to the point where if the audio system does not recreate the whole audio package I have difficulty enjoying the sound. I went to a wedding a few months back and it was a nightmare – it was a live group and it was still some of the worst sound I have heard. I just cannot listen to much of what gets released in the pop music world today. I do not try and be a missionary anymore though as I use to do in my early days as an audiophile. Standing on the dance floor at the wedding and screaming you guys sound like crap would have certainly got me thrown out! I am just not sure being the small group we are if we can exert enough pressure to actually change things – the signs are not encouraging at this point.

So, on the one hand I understand the pressures and constraints the recording industry is under to sell to the population at large rather than us few economically insignificant audio types and on the other hand how frustrating it is for someone with a great audio system to acquire material worth listening too – I want the ‘rush’ back!!!!

james
[/color]

If indeed we are all "addicted" to this whole thing, it needs to be kept in mind that while some junkies fall in love with the junk, others fall in love with the needle...

I'm sure at least some of you are familiar with an album called Raw Power by Iggy And The Stooges from back in the day. It is commonly named as a classic rock album and used as a touchstone in discussions of the genesis of punk rock. From an audiophile point of view, it is a sonic travesty in any of the versions it has appeared in over the years. Totally abrasive ear-bleed city. I can bear witness to the fact that you can spend a pile of $$$ on your system and it does not doll up Raw Power in the slightest - it is utterly impervious to all of the black hi-fi arts.

Raw Power is also a fantastic piece of rock 'n' roll. And the lead-off track, Search & Destroy is my audiophile Distant Early Warning System...

If and when the day comes that I put Search & Destroy on my system and I am not filled with the reckless desire to play air guitar and bounce around because it sounds too awful to enjoy, the alarms will be activated.

And I will put all this hi-fi sh*t on Kijiji...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDNzQ3CXspU

D.D.

[doug s.]

what i posted to the comments section in that article:

this article is a total joke!  lol!  wouldn't it be nice if what the author was saying were true - that audiophiles - not even 1/10th of one percent of the music listening public - could actually have an impact on what the music industry does!  maybe then, such dreck produced by the big studios, reduced to the lowest common denominator, w/the loudness wars, and homogenized content, would finally cease.  maybe decent music and decent sound quality on fm would not be relegated almost 100% to non-commercial radio stations.

and as far as the playback equipment is concerned - "high end" gear - again, audiophiles have *always* been at the lunatic-fringe end of the business.  same as it ever was.  only difference is now, (starting about the time of "perfect sound forever, perhaps?), audiophiles bitch not about the playback end, but the recording end - the major recording studios, who drive the biz, and drive the race to the lowest common denominator for the cheapest, lowest quality music software possible. 

but, thanks, mr. archer, for writing this article.  maybe some of the other 99.99% of the listening public who might read this, will wonder what all the fuss is about, go look for something decently recorded and played back on a half decent system, and have a revelation, and they, too will start bitching about the dreck coming from the major studios.  hey - it would be a start!  ;~)  but, i doubt it will happen - folks listening to crap big-studio productions on crap ipods and crap commercial fm radio stations aren't reading this.

but, there's still hope - w/the 'net, many bands are finding out they don't need the majors; they will turn the industry on its head on their own.  so the musicians and recording engineers can dump the big producers, they can produce what *they* want, not what the big record execs say is what's gonna sell.

and, maybe if the software starts to sound better, w/the musicians having a closer, more direct contact w/their fans, their fans will start to appreciate better playback equipment, instead of simply wanting to listen on their ipods when they're on the bus, in their cars, etc...

for an article about the music biz that actually is intelligent - unlike this ridiculousness, check out what courtney love wrote quite a while ago - it still rings true.  a long read, but excellent and worth the time.  and, bottom line - it's the *music* biz that will drive the biz of selling playback equipment.  make crap music, no one will care about the playback equipment.

http://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/

after all, mr archer, as you yourself said - it's all about the enjoyment of the music.  only thing you fail to realize, (besides the fact that audiophiles have ZERO impact on the industry), is that the enjoyment of music has been the overriding goal of almost ALL audiophiles since the adwent of recorded music.

ah, only if audiophiles really DID have an impact on the industry - it would be SO much better off.  sound quality DOES matter - both form AND content...


doug s.

[doug s.]

I hope you're right. What worries me is that with the cd format dead and buried, the powers that be will decide that the "audiophile market" is too small to take seriously and basically a PITA to serve. Then the focus will shift almost exclusively to low-quality download formats which are cheap and easy to deliver to a marketplace which has already had their expectations lowered to a point where that would be completely acceptable. At that point, other than a handful of boutique vendors offering small selections of higher-rez at inflated prices, the audiophile can go pound sand. We will be well and truly screwed.

D.D.

well besides the act that i don't agree the cd format is quite dead, what really struck me as funny/ironic, is that i already thought "the powers that be" already decided that the "audiophile market" was too small to take seriously and basically a PITA to serve.  But, it started in 1983, w/the adwent of 16/44.1 as the major format of redbook cd.   

i do agree, tho, the thought of it getting ewen worse is not pleasant.

ymmv,

doug s.

[medium jim]

well besides the act that i don't agree the cd format is quite dead, what really struck me as funny/ironic, is that i already thought "the powers that be" already decided that the "audiophile market" was too small to take seriously and basically a PITA to serve.  But, it started in 1983, w/the adwent of 16/44.1 as the major format of redbook cd.   

i do agree, tho, the thought of it getting ewen worse is not pleasant.

ymmv,

doug s.

Doug:

16/44.1 was the state of the art in computer technology back in the late 1970's, early 1980's.  Some would argue that it was able to carry more information than 2" tape.   Properly executed and mastered 16/44.1 can be rather good and can have great detail and doesn't have to be compressed.

Somewhere along the way, the decible wars took hold and the dynamic range was no longer important. 

Jim

[doug s.]

Doug:

16/44.1 was the state of the art in computer technology back in the late 1970's, early 1980's.  Some would argue that it was able to carry more information than 2" tape.   Properly executed and mastered 16/44.1 can be rather good and can have great detail and doesn't have to be compressed.

Somewhere along the way, the decible wars took hold and the dynamic range was no longer important. 

Jim

tape was actually what was used to record cd's early on.  i didn't even have a home cd player until the late 90's, and i always thought it sounded like shite until about ~2000, when i was finally able to at least enjoy it.  the best cd's still don't hold a candle to the best, (or even half decent), winyl, to my ears.

the "decibel wars" sometimes ewen impacted winyl, (or maybe it was the laziness/cheapness of the studio?) - i remember wanting to buy santana's "supernatural" cd when it first came out, but i didn't, cuz every rewiewer said how compressed it was, and that it ruined a nice album.  then it came out on winyl, so i splurged and dropped the $40.  it was still compressed as hell!       what were they thinking - that folks playing winyl in their cars don't want the dynamic range in a noisy enwironment like that?     fortunately, it sounds ok, w/my dbx 3bx engaged.

doug s.

[Diamond Dog]

well besides the act that i don't agree the cd format is quite dead, what really struck me as funny/ironic, is that i already thought "the powers that be" already decided that the "audiophile market" was too small to take seriously and basically a PITA to serve.  But, it started in 1983, w/the adwent of 16/44.1 as the major format of redbook cd.   

i do agree, tho, the thought of it getting ewen worse is not pleasant.

ymmv,

doug s.

Hi Doug: That lil' ol' comment o'mine was worded inelegantly and seems to be getting misinterpreted - I was looking to the future in terms of what fills the vacuum when the industry abandons the CD format. It's currently fashionable to knock CD's and many have at it on various Circles but what comes after and will these folks still want to dance on Redbook's grave when the only widely available format for download could well be some sonic trainwreck like mp3 ? The mass market has already gotten accustomed to the lo-rez sound so I think its a real possibility that audiophiles are going to be ( more ? ) ghettoized.
 The irony of considering yourself and your multi-$$$ stereo system as being ghettoized is not lost on me but I really feel some trepidation about where this all could end up...Even more so when industry insiders like James Tanner are feeling pessimistic as well.

D.D.

[redbook]

 Bravo D.D.   well put

[doug s.]

Hi Doug: That lil' ol' comment o'mine was worded inelegantly and seems to be getting misinterpreted - I was looking to the future in terms of what fills the vacuum when the industry abandons the CD format. It's currently fashionable to knock CD's and many have at it on various Circles but what comes after and will these folks still want to dance on Redbook's grave when the only widely available format for download could well be some sonic trainwreck like mp3 ? The mass market has already gotten accustomed to the lo-rez sound so I think its a real possibility that audiophiles are going to be ( more ? ) ghettoized.
 The irony of considering yourself and your multi-$$$ stereo system as being ghettoized is not lost on me but I really feel some trepidation about where this all could end up...Even more so when industry insiders like James Tanner are feeling pessimistic as well.

D.D.

hey d/d, i understand, really.  it seems more likely than not that the next "standard" is gonna be ewen worse than cd.  only point i was making, is that "the beginning of the end" of quality being the #1 goal of the major recording studios was redbook back in 1983.

while it bothers me on many lewels, the fact is that, for me personally, if not a single recording is ever made again - in ANY format - it will not impact me too badly.  i am already blessed with a couple thousand lps, a couple hundred cd's, and decent non-commercial fm radio.  there's a plethora of music i could purchase that's already been recorded.  as i am 55 years old, there's enough music already out there to keep me happy as a pig-n-poop.

but, for the industry in general, it is not gonna be saved from those at the top.  it is clear that the "big music moguls" could give a rat's a$$ about the quality of the music - format OR content.  the article written by mr archer is more proof of that.  only when the rug is pulled out from under them, so to speak, by musicians side-stepping them, and making their own records, will content and format improve.  imo of course.   

doug s.