[Oz_Audio]

I have been thinking since the weekend.  Normally a very bad thing!

Anyway, I changed the C21 cap in my GK1 to an Auricap and the midrange has improved markedly.

This got me thinking about the internal wire we all debate about and I looked at the PCB.

The PCB is just very thin plated copper and we ge overboard on the wire that we connect to it.

To me it does not compute, any gain in sound in expensive wire will be lost as soon as it hits the PCB.  Everything will be brought back to the weakest link!

Rod Elliott has a good article on interconnects and speaker wire but nothing on internal wire.

Just my 2C worth.

Mark

[AKSA]

Folks,

At the risk of audio heresy, I agree with Mark.

There are lots of reasons for the hype about wire and interconnects.  Much of it relates to marketing, but that's another story.....

My own choice for internal wiring is this:

For heavy current (power, speakers) I use 15A auto hookup wire.  This stuff is six nines copper, stranded, with tough, high temperature PVC sheathing.  It works well and I've never noticed any problems.

For signal wire at line level, I use and recommend CAT5E.  Here I believe there are differences, and CAT5E is very good as it maintains its low impedance at very high frequencies.  This is measurable;  take a look at t-linespeakers.com, where Aaron Drabitt does some interesting tests on it.  Courtesy of Paul, I now have a lot of this wire, and now include it in all my kits for running the input from the RCAs to the amp modules.

One caution only.  I have in the past noticed huge degradation - chiefly splashy, tizzy treble - using silver coated copper wire.  ALL THE AEROSPACE WIRE FALLS INTO THIS CATEGORY - DON'T USE IT!!!  Silver plated copper wire is specifically designed for high current capacity and lightness - most of it is teflon coated.  I have no problem with the teflon, but the silver plating is dynamite for top end, causing massive listener fatigue after only a few minutes.

Cheers,

Hugh

[EchiDna]

snipped a bit out

One caution only.  I have in the past noticed huge degradation - chiefly splashy, tizzy treble - using silver coated copper wire.  ALL THE AEROSPACE WIRE FALLS INTO THIS CATEGORY - DON'T USE IT!!!  

funny thing is Hugh, that locally a lot of people use the Belden teflon coated, silver plated copper for PS hook-up AND for tweeter speaker wire in a bi-wire setup in their various versions of AKSA, PASS, gainclone and tubed DIY amps....

I used it myself for the powersupply hookup in my AKSA, but used cat5e for the signals. Any opinions on the use of the teflon/silver plated in power supply hookup?

[tg3]

...
For signal wire at line level, I use and recommend CAT5E.  Here I believe there are differences, and CAT5E is very good as it maintains its low impedance at very high frequencies...

Hugh,

I'd not heard of Cat5E cable before, and did a quick Google search.

Cat5E is a specification ("designed to meet or exceed TIA/EIA 568-B.2 specifications"), and doesn't precisely define the cable. I found solid conductor, stranded conductor, plenum and even shielded versions. Insulator can be polyolefin, polyethylene or FEP (jacket is usually PVC). And then there is Cat5E plus and Cat6, and some cable labeled Cat5e/6.

So what exactly are you using?

Best regards,

[AKSA]

Hi Thurman,

There have to be a few secrets!!     Suffice to say it is teflon coated, 0.75mm solid core copper!

Cheers,

Hugh

[MarinRider]

All the cables I have tried (until recently) with silver plating have had teflon insulation - they all sounded overanalytical and tiring. I blamed this on the silver. I then read a load of stuff by Jon Risch and he cleary states any sort of plating is a   . Silver plating is obviously very bad!

Working on this philosophy I built a set of Belden 89259 cross coupled speaker cables ( J. Risch recipe), having read that they better than almost any commercial cables at any price and because they had no silver and the "best" insulation you can get. A couple of weeks after the initial thrill of the extra tighntess, detail and 3D imaging I realised the sound was just not right - it was down right fatiguing. Returning to my bog standard copper (3mm2) PVC twisted pair cables brought that welcome relief we all know when an upgrade was really a downgrade.

Since this time I have built some interconnects using copper conductors with silver plating (recommended by Thorsten Loesch) - I thought this would sound bad but actually it's the best interconnect I have.

So what is common among all these cables I did not like?
Not silver but Teflon!

Other cables I have heard support the view that silver is OK:
Vanden Hul D102 MK111 (interconnect)
Chord Rumour (speaker cable)

(My) conclusion:
Teflon is the sinner, not silver.

Dave


BTW Anyone want to buy 2X 5M of CC89259, fitted with hollow Z plugs. in the UK?

[bart11073]

Folks,
For heavy current (power, speakers) I use 15A auto hookup wire.  This stuff is six nines copper, stranded, with tough, high temperature PVC sheathing.  It works well and I've never noticed any problems.

I have a question. What do you mean with "auto hookup" wire, "six nines" and "stranded"?

Sorry for these stupid (I think) questions.

Bye,
Bart

[U4EA]

I have a question. What do you mean with "auto hookup" wire, "six nines" and "stranded"?

Sorry for these stupid (I think) questions.

Bye,
Bart

I beleive he means wire that you can get from an auto supply store.  Obviously the type of wire used in autos.  For things like turn signals and stereo hookups.  

I think the 6 9's refers to 6 strands of wire made up of 9 strands each.  But I am not positive on this one.

[PSP]

Hi Dave,
I've used the Jon Risch cables with great success for several years.  Without casting aspersions on your system (with the exception of the AKSA and TLP, my system has a very modest pedigree) I wonder if the PVC-insulated twisted pair that you had been using masked faults in your system that were revealed by the CC89259.

When I upgraded from the TLP to the Nirvana TLP, a clear majority of my CDs suddenly sounded terrible, some were so bright that they were physically painful to listen to.  After a week of burn-in, it was obvious that this was a problem and that it was not going to go away.  Looking at my system, the obvious weak spot was my speakers, Energy exl-26 (when I bought them 3 years ago, they were by far the strongest part of my system, but that was before I fell under the evil influence of Hugh Dean   ).  In fact, I had some nice replacement Auricap and Solen caps and Mills non-inductive resistors for the crossovers already on hand... when I made the swap the sound smoothed out to an incredible degree and the huge step forward represented by the Nirvana TLP became evident.  Thus, sometimes a step forward does not initially sound like one... makes things difficult I know, but this is not a simple linear problem.

As for teflon, I haven't listened to a lot of insulators and done the critical comparisons so my opinions are based only on theory.  In my day job I sometimes spend some time working on microwave heating problems and thus have done a fair bit of reading on how EM fields interact with materials.  Teflon is an attractive material because it can be made in a fairly pure state, it is chemically inert, and it has a fairly low dielectric constant.  Actually, the "dielectric constant" can be resolved into two components (real and imaginary parts):

the "dielectric constant" = e* = e' - je'', where:

  j = square root(-1)... for those who doubt the value or utility of complex numbers, may I refer you to Feynman, et. al, (1963) Lectures On Physics, vol I, Chapter 22.

  e' = the real part of the dielectric constant.  When an EM field encounters a dielectric the charged and polar molecules within the material move (or try to move) in response to the field.  e', the real part, characterizes the reversible part of the charge displacement.  When the field decays to zero, all reversible charge displacements which would be characterized by e' have returned to the position they occupied before the field was turned on.  

  e'' = the imaginary part, the dielectric loss factor.  This is the component that reflects the irreversible changes that occured in the charge distribution in response to the EM field.  If there are mobile charges (e.g., ions or electrons) in the material, they will be driven through the material when the field is "on" and their collisions with other molecules produce heat (and are thus irreversible by the 2nd law of thermodynamics).  If there are polar portions of larger molecules, they may move in response to the field, but return to their initial positions when the field is turned off may be blocked by other thermal motions of the polymer chain, so those contributions can be irreversible too.

In audio, I believe that it is e'' that is the real culprit in dielectric absorbtion and bad sound.  Comparing teflon and PVC (data at 100Hz and room temperature)

Teflon e' = 2.8,  e'' = 0.002

PVC e' = 5.9,   e'' = 0.48

For foamed teflon, as in 89259, both factors would be reduced in proportion to the amount of air foamed into the insulation, and thus be even better for use in audio.

So, this is not to put down any listening tests to the contrary, it is simply intended as a bit of information and perspective, FWIW.

My apologies for the long ramble...

Peter

[Larry]

I have a question. What do you mean with "auto hookup" wire, "six nines" and "stranded"?

Sorry for these stupid (I think) questions.

Bye,
Bart

I beleive he means wire that you can get from an auto supply store.  Obviously the type of wire used in autos.  For things like turn signals and stereo hookups.  

I think the 6 9's refers to 6 strands of wire made up of 9 strands each.  But I am not positive on this one.

The 6 9's means copper conductor of 99.9999% purity , which is commonly associated with Oxygen Free Copper (OFC) used to make the wire.

[AKSA]

Hi Larry,

Thanks mon.  You got it.......  the six nines issue is copper purity, expressed as the number of digits of a percentage.

Thank you for your congratulations concerning the speaker review on TNT.  I was pretty chuffed, I can tell you........

Cheers,

Hugh

[andyr]

Well, I thought I'd throw in my 2c worth here, as we've had some interesting and diametrically opposed posts in this thread.  And with there being an AA Cable forum and numerous posts on cables in Audio Circle, it is obviously a passionate topic!

Anyway, according to Jon Risch on AA, bare copper sounds the best (well, for a few hours, anyway, until it oxidises!!) and anything which coats it, makes it sound worse.  However, whilst teflon is not that much 'worse', Jon calls so-called 'enameled' Cu wires the next best thing to bare Cu (ie. 'transformer wire').

So I would suggest someone with "golden ears" should try these instead of teflen-coated Cat5.

Now, as to thickness ... well that's another heated debate!  Hugh says his Cat5 is 0.75mm diam, some teflon-coated Belden Cat5 wire which I bought is 0.5mm diam and the teflon-coated hookup wire which I currently have in my AKSAs is solid-core, 0.25mm diam.

This is the stuff I will get around to replacing with "transformer wire" some day but I ain't gonna do consecutive tests with different thicknesses - I'm afraid you need 'golden ears' for that and mine are silver plated at best!!

Anybody game to do the necessary??

Regards,

Andy

[Larry]

Hi Larry,

Thanks mon.  

Sounds like you have a Scotland or north England origin.

[AKSA]

Hi Larry,

Indeed Sar!  Lincolnshire, left in 1842.......

Cheers,

Hugh

[U4EA]

I did not think you could get auto wire with a  99.9999%  purity rating?  Is this an OZ exclusive?

[MarinRider]

Pete,

I agree with most of your comments and in particular that the technical specs for teflon are better than for pvc. Does this mean its provides better sound quality? A 1970's Sansui amplifier (remember them?) has distortion measured in ppm but would you prefer it to your AKSA?

Could the better spec work against you? A low loss dielectric will let  vhf signals (i.e. RFI) in and out of the cable more than a high loss one. A teflon dielectric speaker cable will be much more prone to interaction with surfaces near it. Maybe if I bought a better carpet the teflon cables would sound better  


The effects I notice when I refer to fatiguing sound are not just brightness  - more concerning is the way the sound gets pulled apart - 1st impression is that this gives more detail and soundstaging, but medium term it's tiresome bacause the music  is fragmented rather than coherent. I have noticed the same sort of effect with some op-amps and some power supplies (and early Japanese amps, to get back to the Sansui theme). BTW it's not difficult to make an AKSA sound fragmented - just add a shunt regulated power supply to the front end - theory says it should be better. I have tried it, and swopped back to standard pretty damn quick!

Cheers,

Dave

[PSP]

Hi Dave,

I agree with most of your comments and in particular that the technical specs for teflon are better than for pvc. Does this mean its provides better sound quality?

Very definitely no... I don't believe that good specs = good sound.  Maybe someday, when the full problem, with all nuances intact, is understood we will be able to write good specs that equate to refined sound (but I'm not holding my breath).  

Three years ago, when I moved from 14awg PVC insulated Radio Shack zip cord to CC89259 I heard more inner detail and less flabby bass, liked it, and haven't gone back.  Now that I have much more resolving equipment, it would be an interesting thing to do on a cold winter weekend sometime.

Could the better spec work against you? A low loss dielectric will let vhf signals (i.e. RFI) in and out of the cable more than a high loss one. A teflon dielectric speaker cable will be much more prone to interaction with surfaces near it. Maybe if I bought a better carpet the teflon cables would sound better ...  

If that were true (I think it might be) my favored approach would be an attack on the RFI (through geometry, shielding, line filters, etc.) so I can take full advantage of high transparency and hear the details.  So far, I have not put anything in the signal path to tame the effects of something else in the signal path (I suppose one could argue that the TLP and GK-1 do this to some degree, but I experience (with the TLP/N, no experience with the GK-1 yet) more emotional involvement with the TLP/N vs. using a passive attenuator, for example.  

This hobby/passion/obsession/sickness of ours engages each of us in a different way.  In orchestral music, I listen for a magical combination of blended orchestra, the texture and "grit" of individual instruments, some level of detail in the sound and position of instruments, and the spatial interplay within the orchestra as themes are passed around or answered within the orchestra.  Maybe (probably?) the level of detail that engages me might be fatiguing to you.  Maybe I'm still a bit stuck in the "thrills and chills" phase of my development as an audiophile, something I might outgrow someday.  At that point I'll go back to PVC and zip cord!!!

take care,
Pete

[fred]

Thank you for your congratulations concerning the speaker review on TNT. I was pretty   chuffed, I can tell you........

Not being fluent in Australianese, I had to look up "chuffed," in the dictionary.  All I could find was "chuff" which means:
"to produce noisy exhaust or exhalations "

Considering the context, evidently Australians flatulate as a response to compliments.
 

[AKSA]

Fred,

Ah, yes, not a particularly sweet-smelling race, but a sincere one, and nonetheless gracious in compliment.........  

We have taken example from the British, of course, illustrious, poignant race they be.  You have heard the term 'raspberry', I presume?  This is merely our priceless imprimatur, southern style, you might say.    

As a southerner yourself, my good friend, doubtless you would sympathise with our compulsion to add our own special flavor.....  

Cheers,

Hugh

[EchiDna]

I did not think you could get auto wire with a  99.9999%  purity rating?  Is this an OZ exclusive?

Going OT, but..... Personally I'm with you U4EA, I don't think it is possible to get 99.9999% purity copper, mere milli seconds in air will result in oxidation of copper and hence reduced purity. The process of drawing a wire already exposes it to air, and as such, the purity MUST fall. I work in a laboratory and better than 99.9998% is considered ultra pure for almost every chemical, reagent and standard used. The idea that a wire manufacturer can somehow conjure up a higher purity copper than most laboratory standard copper is beyond me. I put it down to marketing hype and nothing more.

you see in a laboratory, a top quality analytical standard of 99.9998% copper is considered to be 100% pure, and the results of analysis are compared against this, so therefore the product (in this case a wire) is 99.9999% of the imperfect standard. Thats the best possible scenario in a lab, there aint another way! The other stupid thing is that copper must have other metal impurities in it, like zinc, selenium, nickel, iron etc there is no such thing on the planet as 100% copper, silver or anything else for that matter

lets not even touch the covering's impurities...

we do a lot of this trace analysis for Sony suppliers through SE Asia. Believe it or not, Sony is one of the few manufacturers that specify the levels of impurity in the components they use (such as asbestos, pcb, tri butyl tin, azo dyes and other nasty things!)

better stop rambling....